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Peptide
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2004 : 15:32:16
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Just a few questions, tk.
What changed your mind? Was it evidence, a specific peice of evidence, or something else?
Do you still feel that evolution is an anti-christian worldview?
Do you still feel that accepting evolution means denying the existence of God?
This is primarily a question to tkster, but others who have moved from being a young earth/old earth creationist to accepting evolution should also contribute.
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2004 : 11:01:32 [Permalink]
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Click here and that should answer your questions.
Just a quick summary though:
quote:
What changed your mind? Was it evidence, a specific peice of evidence, or something else?
Poor design is the leading bit of evidence.
quote:
Do you still feel that evolution is an anti-christian worldview?
By saying the Bible is metaphoric one is opening themselves up for philosophic attacks so yes.
quote:
Do you still feel that accepting evolution means denying the existence of God?
There are 30,000 gods, care to be more specific? The Biblical God? Yes. I have no clue about the other gods.
tk |
| Edited by - tkster on 12/14/2004 11:53:03 |
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Peptide
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2004 : 15:33:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tkster
Click here and that should answer your questions.
I only have dial up, so I probably won't download the above.
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Poor design is the leading bit of evidence.
Interesting. It isn't the clincher for me, but everyone is different.
quote:
By saying the Bible is metaphoric one is opening themselves up for philosophic attacks so yes.
You may find this surprising, but I disagree. Jesus himself spoke in parables. These were never supposed to be taken literal, nor were they portrayals of something that actually happened. Why can't the creation account in Genesis be the same thing?
quote:
quote:
Do you still feel that accepting evolution means denying the existence of God?
There are 30,000 gods, care to be more specific? The Biblical God? Yes. I have no clue about the other gods.
tk
Again, I disagree but do so with understanding. Thanks for the answers, and best of luck. |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2004 : 16:59:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Peptide
You may find this surprising, but I disagree. Jesus himself spoke in parables. These were never supposed to be taken literal, nor were they portrayals of something that actually happened. Why can't the creation account in Genesis be the same thing?
Except that Jesus also defended the "science" of Moses and also said the creation of adam and eve were at the beginning. To believe in evolution you would not only be calling Moses a liar, but also Jesus and Paul (taught the doctrine of Creation beginning as well and the death doctrine).
In other words, there's no reason to believe in the Bible and thus as I had stated, a person would open themself up to philosophic attacks.
tk |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2004 : 17:05:18 [Permalink]
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If you accept the whole thing (the bible) as a metaphor, then thinking of it as a vehicle to teach people some philosophy and/or ethics and morals is still defensible.
So says a Franciscan friend of mine anyway....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2004 : 17:25:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
If you accept the whole thing (the bible) as a metaphor, then thinking of it as a vehicle to teach people some philosophy and/or ethics and morals is still defensible.
So says a Franciscan friend of mine anyway....
Yes and if the Bible is a metaphor then I'd have to ask why Christians assume their salvation isn't? What it boils down to is that they are picking and choosing from the Bible what they want.
tk |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 00:02:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yes and if the Bible is a metaphor then I'd have to ask why Christians assume their salvation isn't? What it boils down to is that they are picking and choosing from the Bible what they want.
Maybe so. But it's odd that the few religious people I have any respect for are the ones who are capable of recognizing that the bible is not a factual account, nor is it anything remotely resembling accurate history.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 22:02:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tkster
What it boils down to is that they are picking and choosing from the Bible what they want.
And since the Bible contradicts itself, "picking and choosing" is the only way to live by it. And that includes "picking and choosing" which unbiblical rationalizations one might use to argue that the Bible is not self-contradictory.
In other words, it is impossible to truly be a Biblical literalist. Faulting anyone for taking the Bible metaphorically is ludicrous. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Peptide
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 17:16:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tkster
Except that Jesus also defended the "science" of Moses and also said the creation of adam and eve were at the beginning. To believe in evolution you would not only be calling Moses a liar, but also Jesus and Paul (taught the doctrine of Creation beginning as well and the death doctrine).
In other words, there's no reason to believe in the Bible and thus as I had stated, a person would open themself up to philosophic attacks.
tk
I don't remember Jesus every supporting a six day creation. I remember him refering to the six day creation, but only as a reference, not in support. In the same way, I could tell followers to continually strive toward a goal, just as the tortoise beat the hare. This doesn't mean that a tortoise and a hare actually had a race but my message is unaffected whether it happened or not. |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 18:21:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Peptide
quote:
Originally posted by tkster
Except that Jesus also defended the "science" of Moses and also said the creation of adam and eve were at the beginning. To believe in evolution you would not only be calling Moses a liar, but also Jesus and Paul (taught the doctrine of Creation beginning as well and the death doctrine).
In other words, there's no reason to believe in the Bible and thus as I had stated, a person would open themself up to philosophic attacks.
tk
I don't remember Jesus every supporting a six day creation. I remember him refering to the six day creation, but only as a reference, not in support. In the same way, I could tell followers to continually strive toward a goal, just as the tortoise beat the hare. This doesn't mean that a tortoise and a hare actually had a race but my message is unaffected whether it happened or not.
If one is taking the Bible literally, Jesus said that the Creation of Adam and Eve was the beginning, which from my Greek studies, it meant the beginning week of Creation. Yes, that would be calling Jesus a liar.
In other words, again, Jesus would have to be speaking metaphors. Also Paul would be a liar and Moses. I mean, those are the three main figures of the book, that's a huge blow to Christians. It is very obvious why they don't want to accept evolution.
tk |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 19:19:49 [Permalink]
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Since when is 'metaphor' a synonym for 'lie'?
Oh, right. Literally. "Men are pigs" is a common-enough metaphor. People don't take it literally, but understand it to mean "many (but not all) men act like pigs much of the time."
What chapter-and-verse in the Bible tells us that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and most importantly Jesus refused to, or were incapable of, using metaphors? Surely the parable of the talents (whatever it's called by the pros) isn't a story which ends with Jesus blessing those who invest money wisely? After all, wouldn't that contradict the blessing of the poor?
I'll say it again: it is impossible to read the Bible literally without contradiction. If that's a "huge blow to Christians," then they simply have expectations which are far too high. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 21:19:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tkster
... What it boils down to is that they are picking and choosing from the Bible what they want.
When I finally read the Bible 8 years ago (has it really been that long) this is one of the things that caused me to begin "Losing Faith in Faith (D.Barker)" |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 21:51:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Since when is 'metaphor' a synonym for 'lie'?
Oh, right. Literally. "Men are pigs" is a common-enough metaphor. People don't take it literally, but understand it to mean "many (but not all) men act like pigs much of the time."
What chapter-and-verse in the Bible tells us that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and most importantly Jesus refused to, or were incapable of, using metaphors? Surely the parable of the talents (whatever it's called by the pros) isn't a story which ends with Jesus blessing those who invest money wisely? After all, wouldn't that contradict the blessing of the poor?
I'll say it again: it is impossible to read the Bible literally without contradiction. If that's a "huge blow to Christians," then they simply have expectations which are far too high.
Except no one on this planet ever asked me to take them at their word. Jesus, however, did, and I did. He was falsified.
tk |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 21:56:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tkster
Except no one on this planet ever asked me to take them at their word. Jesus, however, did, and I did. He was falsified.
Come on, tk, that's precisely what I'm asking: in which chapter and verse does Jesus state that his words are literally true? And wouldn't such a statement make his parables absolute crap (if they're metaphors, they're actually useful)? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 22:59:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Oh, right. Literally. "Men are pigs" is a common-enough metaphor. People don't take it literally, but understand it to mean "many (but not all) men act like pigs much of the time."
Actually, Dave, when one says "men are pigs" they don't mean men act like pigs some of the time, but rather, men act in a way that societal norms hold to be rude, selfish and thoughtless, often described as an unpolular animal, the pig (but not the same pig description used for people who eat what is considered to be too much in one sitting). In other words, the metaphores are very deep. Indeed, I wonder if a person could go through the day without using metaphor and not sound strange! |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2004 : 09:30:43 [Permalink]
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"All scripture is given by inspiration of God" is a pretty clear statement. It is true or not.
tk |
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