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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
 Posted - 12/17/2004 : 16:39:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Wendy, you are assuming that God manipulates everything. That is not correct.
I assume no such thing. I don't even believe in God.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar If God had manipulated the Garden of Eden, man would have never fallen into rebellion, only Adam and Eve would have been nothing more than puppets. The fact that man has sinned is a clear sign that God is NOT manipulating the situation like you think.
How can you claim to know that? I regret even posting in this thread, because to me it's as futile as discussing how Mother Goose wants her fairy tales interpreted. Since I did, I will say that if there is a God he set mankind up to fail. A perfect being is capable of a perfect creation, should He desire one.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
How was it pre-ordained? God foresaw what would happen, but did not ordain it. God does not sin nor promote others to do so (He doesn't tempt people to do evil).
WHAT?! What was the whole apple tree thing about?
My nephew was house-sitting for friends. He came across a video tape in the bottom of their television cabinet that said in red letters DO NOT WATCH. He watched it. It was a "home movie"  Was that the right thing to do? Of course not. Was it human nature? You bet ya. Who would know human nature better than He who created us?
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
No, not kidding, it's called being the judge of the earth. It's part of history. The evidence of it is everywhere.
I'd ask you for examples, and you'd tell me about bad things happening to bad people. I'd fire back with examples of bad things happening to good people. It would all be a big waste of time, so let's just skip it.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
How is God arbitrary when He gives specific reasons for His judgment of certain groups? You'll have to explain that to me.
Sure, as soon as you explain to me why good and innocent people suffer.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Now that is just plain false, Wendy. God does reward His children and chastens them for specific reasons.
I see no evidence of that in this world.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Everyone is not part of His family, however, at least that is what Jesus taught,
Word is out BigPapaSmurf says I'm the antichrist, isn't it?
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
"if God was your father you would love me...but...you are of your father the devil."
My dad's a pretty hard core Baptist, but I'm seeing him Sunday for his birthday. I can't wait to tell him he's the devil. Won't he be surprised? 
Doomar, I believe that you believe. Merry Christmas!
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 18:47:41 [Permalink]
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WHAT?! What was the whole apple tree thing about?
My nephew was house-sitting for friends. He came across a video tape in the bottom of their television cabinet that said in red letters DO NOT WATCH. He watched it. It was a "home movie" Was that the right thing to do? Of course not. Was it human nature? You bet ya. Who would know human nature better than He who created us?
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Why to you believe in God when you can mock us? You believe in eviloution so therefore evilutionists came from monkies. Christians came from God. There we have settled it. I'm not going to let evilutionists say I came from the same place as them.
My dad's a pretty hard core Baptist, but I'm seeing him Sunday for his birthday. I can't wait to tell him he's the devil. Won't he be surprised?
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Don't be so silly, in what either tommorrow, by accident, or in 45 years you will meet your maker! So just be prepared for that! Death is the fastest way to get there! Either you and I will wake up to everlasting joy or everlasting contempt! |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 19:33:43 [Permalink]
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verlch, please use the quote feature, or at the very least quotation marks. Seeing something I've written that appears to be something you've written must be confusing to others, and quite frankly gives me the creeps.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 21:05:38 [Permalink]
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I would like to suggest a name change for this thread. I believe it should be called "Rationalization and Witnessing" vs "Reason and Logic"
The TRUTH is that it takes FAITH for Gods to exist. With this in mind it is equally clear that the creation being presented by one side in this thread should be reversed to "Man created Gods".
In one of Michael Shermer's books he states that it has been estimated that man has feared and worshipped about 2500 gods. Christians would claim that all but one of these gods are false gods created by man. Putting a positve spin on this he goes on to say that he and all christian are within one god of being in total agreement on this matter. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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klubo
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 12/18/2004 : 18:14:46 [Permalink]
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Really when you say "God" in a room filled with 20 people you summon 20 different gods, all of whom talk too much.
Stories fit the needs of the listeners. Stories cherished by "the children of Israel" championed their causes, in most cases vindication at severe cost to enemies. In those ancient days one of the most severe costs imaginable was the slaughter of one's children. So they simply imputed the power to inflict this cost upon "the Lord."
Sharing the story of how "the Lord" killed all those babies made them feel cozy and warm on cold nights during the Babylonian captivity.
So He's mean as hell if your nation is a sworn enemy to His people, and nice as all get-out if your nation is Chosen.
What a small-minded deity! The worldview of a deity is the reflection of the worldview of the worshipers, who usually think it works the other way around.
Nationalism fuels that kind of thinking. Feeling small and persecuted fuels that kind of thinking. It's a disease.
And incidentally you don't need a deity to be infected by it. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2004 : 18:44:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Wendy, you are assuming that God manipulates everything. That is not correct.
Your continued failure to grasp basic concepts is amazing Doomar.
If your god is:
Omnipotent
and
Omnicient
Then in the moment he created Adam and Eve, he knew exactly what they would do in every moment of their existence. God, therefore, chose to create these two in full knowledge that they would eat the fruit. Therefore, it was god's INTENT that they do so.
Same for you and me really. In the moment of our creation by god, go knew everything we would ever do. Therefore, everything we do is the INTENT of god.
Same for every person who has ever lived. Every action taken by every human being has been the INTENT of god.
And if your god is not omnipotent.... then who gives a fuck? What would make a non-omnipotent being worthy of "god" status? How would such a being be any different than you or I?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2004 : 19:11:27 [Permalink]
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There is not any difference Dude between God and us. Is God a matter of Faith because there is no measuring God? Do you only have to have faith to believe in God?
Of course this post has to do with the Hebrew and Christian God?
I think God makes it up as he goes along just like us. He is just highly more FUCKED UP!!!!!! |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2004 : 20:13:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
[quote]Wendy, you are assuming that God manipulates everything. That is not correct.
Your continued failure to grasp basic concepts is amazing Doomar.
If your god is:
Omnipotent
and
Omnicient
Then in the moment he created Adam and Eve, he knew exactly what they would do in every moment of their existence. God, therefore, chose to create these two in full knowledge that they would eat the fruit. Therefore, it was god's INTENT that they do so.
Same for you and me really. In the moment of our creation by god, go knew everything we would ever do. Therefore, everything we do is the INTENT of god.
That would be presumption to believe that because you knew someone would behave in such a way that you were the one that caused it to happen. That's where the whole "free will" thing comes in. An inherent part of love is free choice. If you are "made" to do something it is not your choice and therefore, not love. Responding to God is a voluntary choice. He surely persuades people everyday, but, as indicated in many of the verses I posted, man chooses to "harden his neck" generally, but sometimes softens in response to God. I dare say almost everyone in this room has at one point been softened in his or her heart, that is, allowed compassion for another person, or pity, or mercy. You may think this happened on your own, not with God's influence, but think again. Then again, at times you've allowed hate or bitterness or malice toward someone and hardened your heart. Or you lied to someone or stole from someone and hardened your heart. Or you had sex with someone just to fulfil your own desire and then pushed that person aside (hardened yourself). There are many ways to harden yourself. Generally, when you get puffed up in your heart and mind, you harden yourself. You think too highly of yourself and condemn others, you selfishly do your own thing without regard for others. This is the nature of man, "selfishness". It is in all of us, no exceptions. It is an evil nature. You may think you are generally "good", but God sees the heart and motivations. If you're honest with yourself, you'll see it too. Therefore, when your heart is softened to love or do an unselfish deed or be kind to your children or anyone, it is the grace of God moving in your heart. Deny it as you might, claim goodness for yourself and there will be someone who will see the truth about you.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2004 : 20:29:22 [Permalink]
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It's Gods nature as well Doormar. That Evil thing. When God does it it is o.k. a lesson is to be learned but if we have hate, murder etc that is our evil nature. If the hebrew God created us than he gave us this evil nature he gave us this free will.
Face it Doormar God can be a pretty nasty Bastard but he tries to make it up in the person of Jesus Christ. See even God is Dysfunctional |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2004 : 20:38:16 [Permalink]
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[purple]Wendy post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Doomar
Now that is just plain false, Wendy. God does reward His children and chastens them for specific reasons.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/purple
I see no evidence of that in this world.]
Open you eyes, girl! But let's go beyond the specific. Every day the sun comes up, God is being good to you and all men. Every time it rains, God is being good to all farmers, good and bad people alike. When you get well from sickness, God is being good to you. You have food on your table and shelter and clothes, God is good to you. And if you have nothing at all, God is there to give grace to the needy and courage, the greater the need the more grace He provides. Every kind word, every blessing you receive comes from God. "Every good and perfect gift comes from above from the Father of lights.."
When we see sick and starving people, in so many cases, there is God, working among them, bringing food, shelter, and clothes from people whose hearts have been "softened" and have compassion on the needy. This is not the work of "hard hearted people". Then we see doctors with great abilities to help people, leaving their well paying jobs and comfort to go to some horrible place on the planet with starving, needy, sick people, deformed people. Why? God has softened their heart, they didn't find their fulfillment in their "cushy" jobs, but among the very needy. Wow! All over the world people's hearts are softened as they yield to God. Instead of pushing the world out, they open their hearts and reach out. To me, this is amazing. You can think it is out of the kindness of their own heart, but man is basically selfish, so I see it as the working of God, bringing mercy to people, using whom He will to do it.
During Christmas time I see so many normally "selfish" people (including myself) opening their hearts and wallets and kitchens to give to others, some are CHristians, but many are not. Yet, the Spirit of Christmas is real. I see it every year at this time. Unselfish giving, anonomous gifts, and all because of a little baby being born called Jesus. People singing songs of joy and happiness, almost like a reprieve from the constant darkness. Sure, there are Scrooges out their, maybe you are one of them, but even for Scrooge their was redemption available......and he took it! Merry Christmas to all!
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2004 : 20:57:57 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Storm
It's Gods nature as well Doormar. That Evil thing. When God does it it is o.k. a lesson is to be learned but if we have hate, murder etc that is our evil nature. If the hebrew God created us than he gave us this evil nature he gave us this free will.
That is not so, Storm. To give someone a choice is not an evil thing. Would you rather have no choice, Storm? Do you think you are without choice in your life? Wouldn't that be what you are admitting, that "God made me do everything". However, I'm sure that is not the case, as your own words betray you.
Adam and Eve were tempted by something other than God. This tempter, we are told, was an angel that rebelled against God, having seen and known God face to face. He wanted to be like God and rule. This being is the enemy of God as the Bible explains it. So even a perfect being, like an angel has a choice, and a third of them choose to follow Satan. So it seems that even God's servants all have a choice and are not puppets. This is the fearful thing I see in my own life, a choice. Not one that anyone else can make, but only me. What will I do? People and God Himself may persuade me, but will I listen?
Unlike Adam and Eve we are already creatures that are born and live in a fallen state. Our natures are corrupt. How can we escape a fate of death and destruction? What possible power can help wicked men turn around from their sinful ways? Can man pull himself up by the bootstraps? Only to become powerful, sucessful, and more selfish generally and more ensnared in selfishness and pride and self satisfaction. In fact, it is the failures and troubles and sicknesses and injuries in life that cause people to look outside of themselves. The troubles humble us. We see these things as horrible, despicable things, yet God can use them for our benefit as a person.
How many people have we heard from who have risen from great troubles to do something good and useful in life? How many spoiled children (having every good thing in life) have we met or seen that are nothing but a pain in the butt to everyone they meet?
And yet we "hate" troubles and condemn God for every one of them, even though He can use them for our good to break us from our entirely selfish, rebellious ways. We condemn God for judging some people in the Bible, yet we rejoice when an evil ruler is put down in a war or brought to trial. How do you think God works in this world? "God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform" source unknown |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 12/18/2004 21:03:39 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2004 : 21:31:56 [Permalink]
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Doormar although I may have choice according to your hebrew god he has the ultimate choice as to what happens in my life. Doormar God is the Devil the temptor. He planned the whole thing. most of it probably as he went on much like us hmmm God Us Us God... 
I was once on my way to Seminary then I had a baby and grew up. This does not mean I do not Believe or have Faith. I do. The God of the Old Testament was one fucked up Dude. But then so were all Gods but then so are we at times... Hmmm.. Correlation |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2004 : 23:23:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Dave, it seems to me that all the writers of the Bible were "pro-God". In fact, they pretty much loved and served Him, yet they wrote down things that make many people stumble in not understanding why God did some horrendous judgments.
We're not talking about the authors of the Bible. Their beliefs are irrelevant.quote:
We can't conceive why anyone would should be punished so severely. Would you be kind to people who slaughtered your relatives, Dave? Would you be "better" than God?
Also irrelevant. The question is not "would Dave be better than God," the question is "why does God, who is allegedly a perfect being, not behave any better than Dave?"quote:
If you were God, Dave, would you include these "anomalies" in your book that cause you to be judged harshly by people?
Absolutely not.quote:
Would you really care what they thought if they were "anti-God" or "pro-God in their viewpoint, as if that would make a difference?
Okay, now I know you're putting us all on. You suggest that God doesn't care whether we believe in Him or not, yet close the post by saying "I am persuaded that it is His desire to save whoever is willing." Obviously a "loving God" would care what His created beings thought of Him. He goes out of His way to tell people that He is a jealous God, but that He is merciful. The Bible is mostly about God being pissed off that so many people disobey Him.quote:
Even the Israelites had trouble understanding God, Dave. After seeing so many wonders done in front of their eyes, they still had trouble believing in Him. He gave them freedom from slavery to the Egyptians, yet they wanted to go back, at times. He told them to worship no other gods, yet they set up a gold calf idol in less than 40 days after receiving the 10 commandments and hearing God's voice.
Entirely irrelevant to my point and your OP, both.quote:
So, Dave, I'm not surprised at your harsh judgment of me. I'm a sinner and a hypocrite in many ways and, as you noted, full of hubris and deserving of hell. My only hope to escape is a merciful God granting me pardon.
Shouldn't a person who acknowledges his sin work to change? Is that not what Jesus taught? Is that not a second hope of escape for you? Thinking that you'll never change is, indeed, a hopeless situation. After all, God doesn't allow sinners in Heaven. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2004 : 23:26:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Open you eyes, girl! But let's go beyond the specific. Every day the sun comes up, God is being good to you and all men. Every time it rains, God is being good to all farmers, good and bad people alike. When you get well from sickness, God is being good to you. You have food on your table and shelter and clothes, God is good to you. And if you have nothing at all, God is there to give grace to the needy and courage, the greater the need the more grace He provides. Every kind word, every blessing you receive comes from God. "Every good and perfect gift comes from above from the Father of lights.."
All of which assumes that your God rewards people in such fashion, so your argument is circular. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2004 : 06:36:08 [Permalink]
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Yep. So he sends the rain that helps the farmers.
He also sends the flood that kills many, many people, good or evil alike. That sends people to the streets moaning because they've lost their houses, children and everything, all because of the flood. Isn't it?
It's so nice to speak about how you've food and clothes and health care, when you don't see it everyday, now isn't it? Everyday, thousands of children on the streets, starving. Everyday, thousands of old people on the streets, begging to have their money so they can buy food for their families. I'm pretty sure those people starving in Africa are pretty thankful to God, aren't they? Only it may not be your desert god. It's their god[s].
What about the indians? Are they going to hell, because they've never heard of your desert-borne god? They've committed many sins, haven't they? Worshipped other gods, just to name one. Who's right, then? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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