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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 12/16/2004 : 21:02:39 [Permalink]
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I was a believer, and the troubles "sent" my way forced me to re-evaluate my life and my view of reality. It was then I realized that God was just a tool constructed to control people, and to help people escape reality.
I used to think the same thing, Dr., to a degree. I thought God was a "crutch" for old and weak people. I was young, strong, and virulant, so I thought I didn't need God. Some things happened in my life to show me I wasn't so strong and great. Then Jesus revealed Himself to me while I was attending school in MN. All my preconceived notions fell to the way side when I realized that God knew me and loved me. I was not automatically "saved" by that experience, but my eyes were opened to understand like never before. I understood that the organized church in America did not really know God anymore, but were just going through the motions. I realized atheism was strong on the campus and people were searching for something in life but couldn't find it, especially not in the church's as they were. The direction of my life was dramatically altered for the good.
The brainwashing that the church is so good at is not easily deprogrammed, and I occasionally default to thinking there is a God, before my rational mind regains control. Provoking threads like this brings up this internal conflict, and it reminds me of how many valuable years of my youth that has been wasted because of it. That really pisses me off in a major way.
There is indeed some brainwashing that goes on in many local churches today. The modern "gospel" is not the good news of the Bible (see http://pastorsb.com). The committment taught in Biblical times was far more intense than what we hear today. The love taught in Bible times was also more intense and real, as is the love of Jesus Christ. Today most churches "play church". It is just a game. In many countries outside the U.S. this is not so. As the persecution is real and painful and costly, so is the reality of those people's religion.
If a Christian would say to my face that my mother-in-law's death in cancer must have been for a divine purpose, I'd probably break several bones in my fist against this person's nose.
I think pain and misery can come to anyone in this life. It may or may not be random, but God is there to help people through their difficulties in this life, not to discourage or destroy them. I don't think the unusual cases of judgment that we are discussing are the norm but the exception and should not be used in the context of everyday life, except to point out that God does judge the nations. I think one would do well to read the many stories of God helping and comforting individuals. In the New Testament, there are so many instances of Christ healing some lowly person who has suffered for a long time, that I think this was and is the heart of God toward people: "peace, goodwill toward men". "He that comes to me I will in no way cast out." "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
I'm wondering if so many people suffer needlessly because they refuse to call upon the Lord for His assistance, not because He is unwilling to help. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 21:05:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Also, why can't god abide sin? Who put those conditions on him? I thought he could abide anything.
God has perfect love and perfect justice. Most people like to talk about his love but not about his justice. Being perfect, god cannot allow anything in his presence that is not perfect. If god ignored sin, and allows it to continue with no punishment, then he would be going against his own character.
quote:
It seems remarkable to me that a diety could make a creature capable of performing an act which itself finds an anathema.
I think you should shift the blame from god to people. We choose to sin and we choose to disobey god. God does not make us do it. There is no true love without choice. He created us as perfect and good, we chose to turn from him.
Some excellant points, Robb! |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 21:28:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
You forgot something, Doomar:
quote:
Exodus 7 KJV
1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.
5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.
quote:
Exodus 10 KJV
1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
2 And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD.
Still from Exodus 10:
quote:
19 And the LORD turned a mighty strong west wind, which took away the locusts, and cast them into the Red sea; there remained not one locust in all the coasts of Egypt.
20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
Yet more from Exodus 10:
[quote]26 Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind; for thereof must we take to serve the LORD our God; and we know not with what we must serve the LORD, until we come thither.
27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
28 And Pharaoh said unto him, Get thee from me, take heed to thyself, see my face no more; for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die.
29And Moses said, Thou hast spoken well, I will see thy face again no more.
Guess what the NEXT plague is??
So you see that [b]in this particular instance and a few others at least, "god" did the "hardening" of pharoah's heart. If god had NOT done it this last time, those first born of egypt would have been spared. Nope. That was inconsequential it seems, compared to showing how tough he was.
So, basically God hardened Pharaoh's heart so he could have an opporturnity to show how "powerful" he was.
I didn't forget, the ignored, but thanks for pointing out these verses. His purpose was not hidden, that is for sure. I'm simply noting that Pharaoh was an accomplice in his own demise. We all are. Pharoah was already bent toward disobeying God. However, as you so adeptly pointed out, this was a special circumstance where God wanted to show His power for future generations on this earth, including us. There was a greater purpose including the purpose of fulfilling his prophecy of ending the 430 years of bondage in Egypt.
I don't believe that God "hardens" the hearts of people as you and others may think. It's not like "hey, I want this guy or gal to go to hell, so I think I'll harden their heart" Not at all. He makes it very clear that "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked man might turn from his wicked ways and live". He clearly recognizes man in a fallen, sinful state and provides grace (His mercy and ability) to help humble souls turn around and lead productive lives with faith in God. It seems that the key is humility mixed with faith. "He resists (hardens) the proud, but gives grace to the humble." So, If one is beat down in this life by various troubles and "humbled" in their heart, maybe this is a good thing in disguise. "All things work together for the good to those that love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." If someone turns to God in the middle of their godless life or physical, financial, emotional, mental, or otherwise troubles, this promise is that God will work their horrible circumstances for this person's good and not for their destruction. This is part of redemption, I think. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 12/17/2004 16:04:24 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 21:45:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
[quote]Robb:
Why he gave us this choice, scripture does not say. If he controls all our actions so we would not sin then we would be puppets with no real relationship to him.
Ah but look. Why did he have to go out of his way to put temptation in front of Adam and Eve. Seems to me that all this can be looked upon as a rationalization for why sin happens. A way of reconciling why we do bad things, (knowledge?) when we were supposedly created to be perfect beings. Why did he feel the need to run the test at all? And even if he did decide to throw in a tree of knowledge and tell Adam and Eve that knowledge wasn't going to go down well, why send a serpent to talk them into eating the freaking apples? Did free will have to be tested by sending down an advocate for disobedience? A further temptation. The game was stacked against humanity from the git go. Also, being all knowing, God knew that those apples would be eaten. And if he knew, there goes free will…
While this may make for a great yarn, or a parable, it does not make for a very convincing story about a just god who had humanities best interest at heart. If nothing ells, it demonstrates gods real intention which was to make man have to work diligently to worm his way back into his heart. It's a set up for all that follows. (The religion.) And to this observer, it seems an all too convenient a way to get us to submit to his will.
To put it another way, without the fall, there is no reason for the religion. And without religion, the whole control aspect of it (choice) has no justification. So the fall story has to happen or this turkey cannot fly…
That's one way of looking at it, Kil. Or, maybe sin is such a bad, destructive thing that once it enters a person or angel, they are doomed and only a huge miracle of God can reverse the effects, only that miracle in and of itself is insufficient without the permission of the individual involved. Man is a complex being. God is infinitely more complex. Because God has complete fidelity and integrity, He cannot go beyond the bounds of His own love and nature, in other words, can't force Himself on anyone. Each individual must open their own heart to Him willingly to receive the fix. An example of it is in Numbers 21 " 8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.". Each individual that was bitten had to get out of their tent or wherever they were and look for that brass serpent on the pole. Not everyone did. Jesus referred to this story when he spoke to Nicodemus in John 3, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up". When anyone bitten with the deadly venom of sin looks to the Son lifted up on the cross, they will live. But how many of us hate the idea of depending on anyone else to help us. We are so proud and ornery, and so we don't look and we die, and in the process we blame God for all our ills and the ills of the world while exempting man from his responsibility or "the devil made me do it", or whatever.
And yet, God still reaches out to us people in love, not in anger. Christmas comes every year to remind us of God's good will toward men.
Merry Christmas to all!
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 23:08:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
I was a believer, and the troubles "sent" my way forced me to re-evaluate my life and my view of reality. It was then I realized that God was just a tool constructed to control people, and to help people escape reality.
I used to think the same thing, Dr., to a degree. I thought God was a "crutch" for old and weak people. I was young, strong, and virulant, so I thought I didn't need God. Some things happened in my life to show me I wasn't so strong and great. Then Jesus revealed Himself to me while I was attending school in MN. All my preconceived notions fell to the way side when I realized that God knew me and loved me. I was not automatically "saved" by that experience, but my eyes were opened to understand like never before. I understood that the organized church in America did not really know God anymore, but were just going through the motions. I realized atheism was strong on the campus and people were searching for something in life but couldn't find it, especially not in the church's as they were. The direction of my life was dramatically altered for the good.
The brainwashing that the church is so good at is not easily deprogrammed, and I occasionally default to thinking there is a God, before my rational mind regains control. Provoking threads like this brings up this internal conflict, and it reminds me of how many valuable years of my youth that has been wasted because of it. That really pisses me off in a major way.
There is indeed some brainwashing that goes on in many local churches today. The modern "gospel" is not the good news of the Bible (see http://pastorsb.com). The committment taught in Biblical times was far more intense than what we hear today. The love taught in Bible times was also more intense and real, as is the love of Jesus Christ. Today most churches "play church". It is just a game. In many countries outside the U.S. this is not so. As the persecution is real and painful and costly, so is the reality of those people's religion.
If a Christian would say to my face that my mother-in-law's death in cancer must have been for a divine purpose, I'd probably break several bones in my fist against this person's nose.
I think pain and misery can come to anyone in this life. It may or may not be random, but God is there to help people through their difficulties in this life, not to discourage or destroy them. I don't think the unusual cases of judgment that we are discussing are the norm but the exception and should not be used in the context of everyday life, except to point out that God does judge the nations. I think one would do well to read the many stories of God helping and comforting individuals. In the New Testament, there are so many instances of Christ healing some lowly person who has suffered for a long time, that I think this was and is the heart of God toward people: "peace, goodwill toward men". "He that comes to me I will in no way cast out." "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
I'm wondering if so many people suffer needlessly because they refuse to call upon the Lord for His assistance, not because He is unwilling to help.
God told Eve not to eat the fruit on the evil tree. God told her not to eat and if she did she would die the day thereof. Well she ate it and was kicked out of the garden. We where going to be created perfect if she had not eaten that apple. We never would have had to die and would be living all over the universe. Earth would have been our home base. Well here we are 6000 years later waiting for God to come back and make things better. Cancer can be caused by a number of things. Pollution, chemicals, pesticided or a covert government program to control the population! Now suddenly its Gods fault she died? I think not. God didn't choose us to be here. He didn't want to have to sent His son to die for the humans on this planet. Well we sinned, and Jesus can and claimed us back to God the father. End of Story. God accepted the sacrifice when Jesus awoke from the dead after three days.
In old Israel at the temple. Every 12 months the High Preists would go into the most holy place in the temple. This is where God was dwelling with His people, above the Ark of the Covenant. So the preist would have to walk in sprinkle that sacrifice around the ark. If God liked the sacrifice the high priest would live and the Jews would be blessed for 12 months of the year. One time a High Preist was going in to the Most Holy Room God was dwelling in. The Jews were gathered around the temple to see if they would be blessed for the next year. Well thinks didn't go so well and God killed the man, they had to pull him out with a rope, because anybody that entered the room would die on the spot. Well the minute Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins the temple curtin in the temple was ripped. Then three days later Christ went to heaven and God accepted the sacrifice for all of the human race!
44: And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45: And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
46: And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Gods' men write the account down guided by the Holy Spirit. As they are a first hand account to what God wants the human race to know... |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 00:19:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
There is a difference between trying to understand and trying to slam. One is a sincere attempt and the other just mockery.
And yet, you suggested that it is impossible for someone without faith in God to understand the Bible. Per your post here, you're not trying to understand the non-faithful, but just slamming them.quote:
If this thread just becomes a place for people to slam anything God, you are right, it is over.
Similarly, if your answers to honest questions will be nothing but apologetics without Biblical foundation, it will also be over.quote:
Dave, straining at nats again? Lot was declared a righteous man, not because he did everything right, Dave, but because he believed God and trusted Him. Even the new testament declares how "righteous Lot was vexed by the filthy conversation of the wicked". Consider a main teaching in the Bible, Old and New -- "the just shall live by faith".
Way to dodge the other, more important points I was making, Doomar. And now "just" is a synonym for "righteous?"quote:
Is it fair that all men die, Dave? God sees all of us as sinners, worthy of eternal judgment. Every person will die. You judge one type of death to be worse than another though you've not experience death at all.
This is false. I judge the fact that thousands were killed horribly instead of one man being killed in almost any way to be a sign of vindictive terrorism, and not mercy.quote:
What makes you an expert in this field of dying? On the other hand, God is an expert in giving life and taking life, yet He has provided a way of escape, a way of mercy, if anyone wishes to take it.
What makes you an expert on what God is or is not?quote:
Over a few thousand years only a few incidents are mentioned in the Bible of God judging a people severely by killing even the children. "Behold the goodness and severity of God". A believer assumes that God had His reasons for these actions and His most severe judgments are reserved to severe cases of rebellion and evil. As I noted, only a few such cases are mentioned in the Bible which spans a period of perhaps 6,000 years. You and others don't understand the reasons, and I probably don't either, but we differ in that I believe God had His reasons and they were justified, because I believe He is ultimately fair and just, while you condemn His actions and condemn God himself to be less just than mortal men.
Not at all. I judge your interpretation of the Bible to be severely biased in the "pro-God" direction, and the fact that you can't support God's actions with more than a statement of faith (not a single chapter-and-verse citation) to be indicative of the fact that you are fabricating rationalizations, and not going by what the Bible actually says. In other words, in order to support your own version of the Christian God, you are purposefully ignoring huge swaths of the Bible in which the literal reading tells us that God is a prick.quote:
Herein is the evidence of men exalting themselves above God and stating how they are more righteous than He. This is extreme presumption and pride, both serious sins.
The presumption here is that God exists. I don't presume any such thing, and thus cannot judge myself to be more righteous than He. In fact, given your definition of "righteous," above, I judge myself to not be righteous at all - I neither believe in your God nor do I trust Him. God Himself - if He exists - cannot possibly be less righteous than I.quote:
It's no wonder that God must judge men to weed out the extreme wickedness and preserve goodness.
This is just witnessing, and does nothing to advance your argument.quote:
Putting a stumbling block in front of a weak person to cause them to fall is a very evil thing, according to the Bible. A man who causes a "little one" who believes in the Lord to stumble is said to be better of if he had a millstone tied on his neck and thrown into the sea. Yet how many of you give little thought to how your beliefs and actions relating to God affect your children? Atheism is an acceptable thing among you, demeaning diety, an every day affair in your posts. "the fear of God is not among them". "The fear (respect) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"
Well, sheesh. Isn't it obvious? The way to salvation is narrow and difficult. Christianity, being the number-one religion in the world, is the simplest way to think and live. As far as I can tell, Christianity is the wide and easy route to damnation.
By teaching my child to question his own beliefs, I hope to give him the tools to live a truly fruitful and fascinating life in which he elevates the human condition in whatever way he chooses because it's the right thing to do, and not because he's afraid of Hell or of missing out on Heaven. The Christian God is all about fear. The narrow and difficult road to travel in life is to overcome one's fears.
You also wrote:quote:
How you came to this conclusion for the meaning of that story is beyond me. I think we could more safely conclude that it is dangerous to mock bald people, especially when they are prophets of God.
But is the death of 42 children from divinely-sent bears an example of God's infinite mercy and tolerance? Obviously not. Mocking a bald prophet of God doesn't harm God, and in fact Jesus taught that people who are mocked are actually blessed. Why would a tolerant and merciful God slaughter the kids? Cite chapter-and-verse, please.quote:
It probably is pointless for you, Dude, however, some of us think the so called "bad" things God does have a greater purpose and meaning. Our lack of understanding for why He did or allowed certain things is the reason for this th |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 00:37:57 [Permalink]
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Damn. I missed something, above...
Doomar judges us to be damaging our children, to putting "stumbling blocks" in other people's way. Yet Doomar cannot tell us that our actions are not the Divine Will of God, since to do so would mean that there is no need to give God the benefit of a doubt.
The ability to judge the actions of men, Doomar, is reserved - by you - for God, yet you cannot help but judge people, anyway. This is the hypocrisy Christ spoke of. It is these continued acts of hubris that will deny you everlasting paradise.
And, finally, it is such self-contradiction that makes you inelligible to criticize anyone else's "expertise" on any subject. You are obviously no expert in following Christ's teachings, so don't commit the sins of presumption and pride in thinking that your opinions of the Bible are any more valid than anyone else's. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 03:07:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
God told Eve not to eat the fruit on the evil tree.
But before eating from the tree Eve did not know good (obeying) from evil (disobeying).quote:
God told her not to eat and if she did she would die the day thereof.
She ate and didn't die that day. God lied and the serpent told the truth. God did not say anything about spiritual death . Nor that to die meant to be kicked out of the garden party.quote:
Well she ate it and was kicked out of the garden. We where going to be created perfect if she had not eaten that apple.
But if God is omnipotent and omniscient he knew this from the beginning, he was also able to prevent it or design his creation in an other way, so the if is irrelevant.quote:
We never would have had to die and would be living all over the universe. Earth would have been our home base.
Hmmmm.
I can't find this in KJV. Which version are you using?quote:
Well here we are 6000 years later waiting for God to come back and make things better. Cancer can be caused by a number of things. Pollution, chemicals, pesticided or a covert government program to control the population! Now suddenly its Gods fault she died? I think not. God didn't choose us to be here. He didn't want to have to sent His son to die for the humans on this planet.
So the god you believe in is not omnipotent and omniscient. He is a klutz and his creation was never perfect.
Kind of lowers your expectations of heaven doesn't it?quote:
Well we sinned, and Jesus can and claimed us back to God the father. End of Story. God accepted the sacrifice when Jesus awoke from the dead after three days.
If I go on a three day vacation I don't call this a sacrifice.quote:
Gods' men write the account down guided by the Holy Spirit. As they are a first hand account to what God wants the human race to know...
So God wants people to think that he is dolt?
Have a nice sane holiday verlch!
"I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't have to spend my whole life fearing hell, or fearing heaven even more. For whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse."
-- Isak Asimov
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
-- Isak Asimov
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 03:53:46 [Permalink]
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Gotta love Asimov |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 09:25:45 [Permalink]
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I never knew you guys were so religious!!!! Max Von Sydow said it best in woody allens Hannah and her sisters. "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. Everytime I put on the t.v. it's Jesus Jesus Jesus" The Bible is Tool symbolic of humankinds nature of Nature Herself. Death, Disease, are all things that effects us terribly especially when we see our loved ones suffer. Humanity since it's existence has tried to explain the reasons for this. Aside from all the God talk we can use the bible as a tool for living. If you think about the Ten Commandments are a good book of Social Law.
Though Shall Not KIll
Though Shall not Steal
Though shall not Covet thy neighbors property including his Wife.
While I personally do not believe in Sin
breaking these rules can lead to criminal activity, murder, guilt, etc All that makes our lives pretty damm miserable.
Humankind realized that they could not always abide by these rules So then we have the person Jesus Christ. Self Sacrifice Agape Love.
The parables are meant as lessons for Humankind. They are actually very enlightening.
Why do Good things happen to bad people? Because Many people are f@#*ed up? So does that mean God is well yes! But once you realize that you evolve and move on. You and God come to terms.
The whole idea of blaming eve is the shift from matriarchial society to the patriarchial society. Womans roles are suppressed. But the Goddess is on the rise!!!! |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 10:07:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
God told Eve not to eat the fruit on the evil tree.
But before eating from the tree Eve did not know good (obeying) from evil (disobeying).quote:
God told her not to eat and if she did she would die the day thereof.
She ate and didn't die that day. God lied and the serpent told the truth. God did not say anything about spiritual death . Nor that to die meant to be kicked out of the garden party.quote:
Well she ate it and was kicked out of the garden. We where going to be created perfect if she had not eaten that apple.
But if God is omnipotent and omniscient he knew this from the beginning, he was also able to prevent it or design his creation in an other way, so the if is irrelevant.quote:
We never would have had to die and would be living all over the universe. Earth would have been our home base.
Hmmmm.
I can't find this in KJV. Which version are you using?quote:
Well here we are 6000 years later waiting for God to come back and make things better. Cancer can be caused by a number of things. Pollution, chemicals, pesticided or a covert government program to control the population! Now suddenly its Gods fault she died? I think not. God didn't choose us to be here. He didn't want to have to sent His son to die for the humans on this planet.
So the god you believe in is not omnipotent and omniscient. He is a klutz and his creation was never perfect.
Kind of lowers your expectations of heaven doesn't it?quote:
Well we sinned, and Jesus can and claimed us back to God the father. End of Story. God accepted the sacrifice when Jesus awoke from the dead after three days.
If I go on a three day vacation I don't call this a sacrifice.quote:
Gods' men write the account down guided by the Holy Spirit. As they are a first hand account to what God wants the human race to know...
So God wants people to think that he is dolt?
Have a nice sane holiday verlch!
"I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't have to spend my whole life fearing hell, or fearing heaven even more. For whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse."
-- Isak Asimov
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
-- Isak Asimov
When you have a problem at work, what does everybody tell you to do. Write it down and keep a log. Well since humans are imperfect and forgetfull, God has a book written to express his will to the human race. He has a plan lots of humans seem not to understand.
Adam and Eve where perfect. They where unfallen and nothing died. They where clothed with the light of God!
Angels can go anywhere. Since God knows the future, maybe he knew man was going to fall. Since it was in His plan to create man in His image that he did it if you liked it or not! He created Lucifer and knew that he would be the first sinner. For God or evil the will of God will be done in the beginning or the end. God when He sends His son back to earth is going to have a bunch of believers tried by the fire and found loyal to God! |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 10:14:51 [Permalink]
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Why quote my post if you are not replying to it?
"Got bless those pagans"
-- Homer J
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 13:40:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Robb
I have to agree with BPS here. Define perfect, please.
We need to have a working definition for what constitutes "perfect" in this case before the discussion can productively continue. Otherwise, we may foray into dogma with no common concensus for what "perfect" means.
I tried to define it earlier as this:
If someone beleives that God is the creator of everything then perfect is what God says it is. He says that his creation was perfect.
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
or
A perfect person is someone that lives a sinless life according to the teachings of the bible since god created us without sin.
But this is not a working definition of "perfect". If we go with that definition, then potentially everything man does is "perfect". Likewise, the evils wrought on mankind by God are "perfect".
It's not a basis to get a consensus and drops us right back to the land of Dogmatic interpretation of the Bible. (Which was written by man and kept as an oral tradition for many years.) |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 15:51:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Wendy, consider that God is not an artist but a Creator who made living beings with wills of their own.
As Kil stated, God is supposedly all-knowing. If we agree that God is an omniscient and omnipotent being, then to say we have free will is bogus. God already knows what we will do in any given situation, and he can manipulate the circumstances to get His desired result, i.e. heart-hardening, snake-infested apple trees, etc.
Wendy, you are assuming that God manipulates everything. That is not correct. If God had manipulated the Garden of Eden, man would have never fallen into rebellion, only Adam and Eve would have been nothing more than puppets. The fact that man has sinned is a clear sign that God is NOT manipulating the situation like you think.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
I am agnostic, but for the stake of discussion, had Adam and Eve not sinned the rebellious race would never have come to be. Sin was pre-ordained, and essential in order for "man" to exist.quote:
How was it pre-ordained? God foresaw what would happen, but did not ordain it. God does not sin nor promote others to do so (He doesn't tempt people to do evil).
Originally posted by Doomar
At times, certain humans are "out of control" wreaking havok on other people and causing much harm and pain. God, the Creator, is forced, in love for those not so inclined to rebell, to deal harshly with many who are out of control.
You're kidding, right? Tell me you're kidding.
No, not kidding, it's called being the judge of the earth. It's part of history. The evidence of it is everywhere.
[quote]Originally posted by Doomar
To not do so would be like firing all the police force and judges and sending them home. Now tell me how would our world look without any law or enforcement? God is behind the order we see in society, the laws and regulations that help men coexist peacably.
Were that true, it would explain a lot. God (and we're assuming for the sake of this discussion that He exists) is entirely arbitrary.[
How is God arbitrary when He gives specific reasons for His judgment of certain groups? You'll have to explain that to me.
quote]Originally posted by Doomar
Is it so hard to think that God would sometimes have to deal hard with certain groups or individuals?
No, that would be understandable were there any order, justice or logic to His actions. If I ran my household the way God runs His, I would both punish and reward my children without regard for their accomplishments or transgressions.
Now that is just plain false, Wendy. God does reward His children and chastens them for specific reasons. Everyone is not part of His family, however, at least that is what Jesus taught, "if God was your father you would love me...but...you are of your father the devil."
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2004 : 15:59:57 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Robb
[quote]Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Robb
I have to agree with BPS here. Define perfect, please.
"31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Genesis 1:31
Perhaps the word "perfect" is not the best word. God made things "very good". Adam and Eve began without any sin, but "perfect"? I'm thinking only God is truly perfect, people's opinions in this thread notwithstanding. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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