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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
 Posted - 12/15/2004 : 12:02:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
It probably is pointless for you, Dude, however, some of us think the so called "bad" things God does have a greater purpose and meaning.
That just doesn't make sense. Think of any creative person (creator) you have known. Would an artist destroy his/her own paintings, or stand by and see it done? Would a poet? A sculptor? A musician? Only if the work was sub-standard, I should think. The problem is, that fault lies with the creator, and God is presumably without fault. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 14:18:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
God promises he will never leave you, not that you will never experience trouble.
I think this quote applies:
"Trials are medicines which our gracious and wise Physician prescribes because we need them; and he proportions the frequency and weight of them to what the case requires. Let us trust his skill and thank him for his prescription."... Sir Isaac Newton
There is no way to prove God exists using science. Just as science cannot be used to predict peoples relationships with each other.
This is actually quite funny since Isaac Newton was an ass outside science.
All bad shit that has happened to me in my life has made me a church-loathing atheist/agnostic. I'm sure your God intended this. So don't be offended, because God ment me to say to you and Doomar that you can go and stuff your faith and Bible up eachother's rectums. It's His devine message to you (through me).
Thanks for the message. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 14:55:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Thanks for the message.
You're welcome. Realize that when you start implying that most or all bad shit that happens happen because of devine will, I'm going to take offence.
I would hazard a guess that Siberia agrees with me on this, thought she's far too polite to say it.
"The LORD hardened Dr. Mabuse's heart, and made him turn againts the LORD's people, and brothers in Christ"
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 15:25:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Thanks for the message.
You're welcome. Realize that when you start implying that most or all bad shit that happens happen because of devine will, I'm going to take offence.
I would hazard a guess that Siberia agrees with me on this, thought she's far too polite to say it.
"The LORD hardened Dr. Mabuse's heart, and made him turn againts the LORD's people, and brothers in Christ"
Actually, I hear that all the time. Considering I'm twenty, and I've been on this same situation since I was eight months old... I got used to it. I don't stop to think why anymore. If it was God, the Devil, the evil alien minions of Alpha Centauri or the Magical Pink Unicorn that decided to make me ill, doesn't really make any difference to me. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 15:29:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Thanks for the message.
You're welcome. Realize that when you start implying that most or all bad shit that happens happen because of devine will, I'm going to take offence.
I would hazard a guess that Siberia agrees with me on this, thought she's far too polite to say it.
I didn't want to imply that God directs all bad things to happen, I think that he allows bad things to happen to you from a sinful world, and if you ask him, he will make good things come from these troubles. If you are a beleiver, he may send troubles your way to increase your faith, so you can better accomplish the purpose for your life. |
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Shacal
Skeptic Friend
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 15:41:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
I didn't want to imply that God directs all bad things to happen, I think that he allows bad things to happen to you from a sinful world, and if you ask him, he will make good things come from these troubles. If you are a beleiver, he may send troubles your way to increase your faith, so you can better accomplish the purpose for your life.
Wait, so if something bad happens to an unbeliver, it is due to sin, and if it happens to a believer it is to test their faith? You seem to have covered every possibilty...
Except for the much more practical idea that bad stuff just happens. |
"The problem with communication is the illusion that we have accomplished it" |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 19:02:17 [Permalink]
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I wonder if god ever sends bad stuff his own way? You know, so he doesn't stagnate and can "grow" as a deity.
Also, why can't god abide sin? Who put those conditions on him? I thought he could abide anything. It seems remarkable to me that a diety could make a creature capable of performing an act which itself finds an anathema. For a being without limits, he has a pretty strict set of rules for us.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 19:19:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
If you are a beleiver, he may send troubles your way to increase your faith, so you can better accomplish the purpose for your life.
I was a believer, and the troubles "sent" my way forced me to re-evaluate my life and my view of reality. It was then I realized that God was just a tool constructed to control people, and to help people escape reality.
The brainwashing that the church is so good at is not easily deprogrammed, and I occasionally default to thinking there is a God, before my rational mind regains control. Provoking threads like this brings up this internal conflict, and it reminds me of how many valuable years of my youth that has been wasted because of it. That really pisses me off in a major way.
If a Christian would say to my face that my mother-in-law's death in cancer must have been for a divine purpose, I'd probably break several bones in my fist against this person's nose.
(Edited for spelling) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 12/15/2004 19:26:54 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 20:39:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Moakley said,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly, if the Christian God commands the killing of children, then it is a good and righteous act. By this same standard, if you are a fine Christian woman and God tells you to kill your five children, then by killing your five children you would be performing a good and righteous act.
Moakley, does one need to explain how not all killing is under the same circumstance and for the same reasons? Surely you understand that some killing is self-defense, some murder, some war, some judgment of God, some accidents. Killing in murder cannot be equated with killing in judgment. Do we put a stamp of approval on "killing of children" because God did it in the Bible? Of course not. This killing was a result of judgment on that entire nation of people with no exceptions. In other cases we see God condemning people who killed their children as sacrifices on an altar to some false image of a god. Obviously, killing of children is not an acceptable "normal" practice. Taking something out of context to prove a manevolent point agaist God is really pretty weak.
The killing of her five children was not the result of judgement? She clearly stated that she killed her children because god told to do so. What you are saying is that if this story had been recorded in the bible it would have been justifiable as an act of gods judgement. Because had it been recorded in the bible it would have become a part of gods inspired word. And you would defend it as a righteous act. But I suspect that 33 years of biblical programming will not allow you to see this as a legitimate case of the bad stuff that god beliefs enable. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 21:05:54 [Permalink]
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Here's maybe an example of why believing that "god is always good" may cause trouble.
quote:
"We know what causes schizophrenia and it isn't going to church. It's biochemical."
But some experts suggest mental illness is harder to detect and treat in faiths more inclined to attribute odd behavior to Satan and trust prayer over medicine.
"They're not seeing this as a mental illness. They're seeing it as the person having demons, perhaps, or a sin problem or not being spiritually fulfilled," said Roger Olson, a theology professor at Baylor's Truett Seminary.
And, in some fundamentalist environments, symptoms of mental illness can appear normal: Obsession over a religious leader can be interpreted as religious fervor, and delusions can be interpreted as religious visions.
Edit: Fixed link! |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 12/15/2004 23:11:45 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 21:38:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
Here's maybe an example of why believing that "god is always good" may cause trouble.
That looked like an interesting article, but your link goes to a page of alternative X-mas carols. 
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 23:12:40 [Permalink]
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| Sorry, I fixed the link! |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 23:22:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
Edit: Fixed link!
Thanks! I'm glad you did, that was good article.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/15/2004 23:23:00 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 07:20:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Shacal
quote:
I didn't want to imply that God directs all bad things to happen, I think that he allows bad things to happen to you from a sinful world, and if you ask him, he will make good things come from these troubles. If you are a beleiver, he may send troubles your way to increase your faith, so you can better accomplish the purpose for your life.
Wait, so if something bad happens to an unbeliver, it is due to sin, and if it happens to a believer it is to test their faith? You seem to have covered every possibilty...
Except for the much more practical idea that bad stuff just happens.
That is not what I said. Bad things can happen to all people because of sin in this world. If you are an unbeleiver or beleiver bad things may happen to you because of your sin or other peoples sin. As a beleiver my sin is forgiven, but I will still reap the consequences of my sin.
Yes bad things just happen. A story in the news recently told about a mother and two children driving down the highway. Their front tire blew out and they crashed into another car and the mother died. The two children survived. This is a tragic story, but it is a case of a tire failing and not any judgement by God or the work of satin. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 07:33:47 [Permalink]
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| I suggest Philip K Dick's 'The Trouble with Bubbles', hard to believe it was written in the early fifties. About a game craze where everyone builds there own world simulator then then have contests to see who's is the best. Not gonna spoil the details. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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