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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 12/16/2004 : 08:19:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Also, why can't god abide sin? Who put those conditions on him? I thought he could abide anything.
God has perfect love and perfect justice. Most people like to talk about his love but not about his justice. Being perfect, god cannot allow anything in his presence that is not perfect. If god ignored sin, and allows it to continue with no punishment, then he would be going against his own character.
quote:
It seems remarkable to me that a diety could make a creature capable of performing an act which itself finds an anathema.
I think you should shift the blame from god to people. We choose to sin and we choose to disobey god. God does not make us do it. There is no true love without choice. He created us as perfect and good, we chose to turn from him.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 08:52:46 [Permalink]
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Name one thing that is perfect about humanity? Perfect is a perspective arguement in most cases unless your shooting perfect bullseyes with every archery shot. So please Im dying to know Robb. How were the Fictional Adam and Eve perfect? Is disobeying your master perfect? a perfect specimen, how do you judge if there are no imperfect versions?
Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.
Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.
Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient.
Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation: She was the perfect actress for the part.
Completely corresponding to a description, standard, or type: a perfect circle; a perfect gentleman.
Accurately reproducing an original: a perfect copy of the painting.
Complete; thorough; utter: a perfect fool.
Pure; undiluted; unmixed: perfect red.
Excellent and delightful in all respects: a perfect day.
Botany. Having both stamens and pistils in the same flower; monoclinous.
Grammar. Of, relating to, or constituting a verb form expressing action completed prior to a fixed point of reference in time.
Music. Designating the three basic intervals of the octave, fourth, and fifth.
What exactly are we talking about?
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 08:54:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
It probably is pointless for you, Dude, however, some of us think the so called "bad" things God does have a greater purpose and meaning.
That just doesn't make sense. Think of any creative person (creator) you have known. Would an artist destroy his/her own paintings, or stand by and see it done? Would a poet? A sculptor? A musician? Only if the work was sub-standard, I should think. The problem is, that fault lies with the creator, and God is presumably without fault.
Wendy, consider that God is not an artist but a Creator who made living beings with wills of their own. People are made with abilities like God, only they are limited. Because human beings chose to disobey God's simple commands, they became a rebellious race, corrupted by their sinful actions. At times, certain humans are "out of control" wreaking havok on other people and causing much harm and pain. God, the Creator, is forced, in love for those not so inclined to rebell, to deal harshly with many who are out of control. To not do so would be like firing all the police force and judges and sending them home. Now tell me how would our world look without any law or enforcement? God is behind the order we see in society, the laws and regulations that help men coexist peacably. Is it so hard to think that God would sometimes have to deal hard with certain groups or individuals? Don't we see many "disasters" and wars today that in one way or another God is using to deal with people? God hasn't changed, there is just no one individual writing down these events and explaining them to us, not that most would even listen. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 09:08:57 [Permalink]
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"The LORD hardened Dr. Mabuse's heart, and made him turn againts the LORD's people, and brothers in Christ"
For those of you who want to see the entire picture:
15But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exodus 8:15
32And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32
34And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34
6Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? I Samuel 6:6
14Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD their God. 15And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, II Kings 17:14
but he stiffened his neck, and hardened his heart from turning unto the LORD God of Israel. II Chr 36:13
16But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their necks, and hearkened not to thy commandments, 17And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not. Neh. 9:16
29And testifiedst against them, that thou mightest bring them again unto thy law: yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto thy commandments, but sinned against thy judgments, (which if a man do, he shall live in them;) and withdrew the shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear. 30Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets: yet would they not give ear: therefore gavest thou them into the hand of the people of the lands. 31Nevertheless for thy great mercies' sake thou didst not utterly consume them, nor forsake them; for thou art a gracious and merciful God.Neh 9:29
4He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered? Job 9:4
26Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers. Jer. 7:26
This verse tells why God judges:
15Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words.Jer.19:15
20But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him: Daniel 5:20 (talking about King Neb.)
15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? Heb. 3:13
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 09:33:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Name one thing that is perfect about humanity? Perfect is a perspective arguement in most cases unless your shooting perfect bullseyes with every archery shot. So please Im dying to know Robb. How were the Fictional Adam and Eve perfect? Is disobeying your master perfect? a perfect specimen, how do you judge if there are no imperfect versions?
God made a perfect world, and He gave the perfect man and woman the privilege of choosing. Adam and Eve were created holy, but they had the choice to choose evil as we do today. Jesus was also created perfect and good, he had the choice to do evil or follow god. He never chose to do evil. Jesus was a perfect man and lived a perfect life. We are perfect people but choose an imperfect life.
Why he gave us this choice, scripture does not say. If he controls all our actions so we would not sin then we would be puppets with no real relationship to him.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 09:53:01 [Permalink]
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Nice you totally failed to answer even one part of my question.
WHAT IS PERFECT? A perfect world to you is another mans hell on earth. Would perfect people choose Evil over Good, maybe yours but not in my mind. I consider what Jesus did evil, because as you dont seem to understand MOST people in the world do not think he is the son of god. That makes him a liar to the rest of us, an evil trait. Your idea of a perfect life is YOURS! Stop trying to force it on us. Because my perfect world is WAY better than your evil cruel God's.
Shiit, all you gotta do is look at a pig, Pig = many boobies, Human = only 2 boobies, not perfect where Im standing. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 10:06:23 [Permalink]
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You forgot something, Doomar:
quote:
Exodus 7 KJV
1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.
5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.
quote:
Exodus 10 KJV
1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
2 And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD.
Still from Exodus 10:
quote:
19 And the LORD turned a mighty strong west wind, which took away the locusts, and cast them into the Red sea; there remained not one locust in all the coasts of Egypt.
20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
Yet more from Exodus 10:
quote:
26 Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind; for thereof must we take to serve the LORD our God; and we know not with what we must serve the LORD, until we come thither.
27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
28 And Pharaoh said unto him, Get thee from me, take heed to thyself, see my face no more; for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die.
29And Moses said, Thou hast spoken well, I will see thy face again no more.
Guess what the NEXT plague is??
So you see that [b]in this particular instance and a few others at least, "god" did the "hardening" of pharoah's heart. If god had NOT done it this last time, those first born of egypt would have been spared. Nope. That was inconsequential it seems, compared to showing how tough he was.
So, basically God hardened Pharaoh's heart so he could have an opporturnity to show how "powerful" he was. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 10:27:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Robb:
Why he gave us this choice, scripture does not say. If he controls all our actions so we would not sin then we would be puppets with no real relationship to him.
Ah but look. Why did he have to go out of his way to put temptation in front of Adam and Eve. Seems to me that all this can be looked upon as a rationalization for why sin happens. A way of reconciling why we do bad things, (knowledge?) when we were supposedly created to be perfect beings. Why did he feel the need to run the test at all? And even if he did decide to throw in a tree of knowledge and tell Adam and Eve that knowledge wasn't going to go down well, why send a serpent to talk them into eating the freaking apples? Did free will have to be tested by sending down an advocate for disobedience? A further temptation. The game was stacked against humanity from the git go. Also, being all knowing, God knew that those apples would be eaten. And if he knew, there goes free will…
While this may make for a great yarn, or a parable, it does not make for a very convincing story about a just god who had humanities best interest at heart. If nothing ells, it demonstrates gods real intention which was to make man have to work diligently to worm his way back into his heart. It's a set up for all that follows. (The religion.) And to this observer, it seems an all too convenient a way to get us to submit to his will.
To put it another way, without the fall, there is no reason for the religion. And without religion, the whole control aspect of it (choice) has no justification. So the fall story has to happen or this turkey cannot fly…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 10:36:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Nice you totally failed to answer even one part of my question.
WHAT IS PERFECT? A perfect world to you is another mans hell on earth. Would perfect people choose Evil over Good, maybe yours but not in my mind.
If someone beleives that God is the creator of everything then perfect is what God says it is. He says that his creation was perfect.
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
quote:
I consider what Jesus did evil, because as you dont seem to understand MOST people in the world do not think he is the son of god. That makes him a liar to the rest of us, an evil trait.
Why do you think I don't understand this? Many reject Jesus or have never heard of him. I understand this. Popularity is not how I judge things to be true or false. I agree if you do not beleive Jesus is who he says he is then yes you would think he is a liar.
quote:
Your idea of a perfect life is YOURS!
I never said that my life was perfect. I was made perfect but I chose to sin. Only jesus can make my life perfect before God.
quote:
Stop trying to force it on us. Because my perfect world is WAY better than your evil cruel God's.
How am I forcing my beleifs onto you??? This is the religion folder correct? Is this where we are supposed to discuss idea's or not? You came to this folder on you own. If this is not a proper place to discuss these ideas then let me know and I will leave. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 12:04:23 [Permalink]
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| "He is the rock" <-- god refering to himself as he?, I doubt it, Man wrote the Bible, not god. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 12:42:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Name one thing that is perfect about humanity? Perfect is a perspective arguement in most cases unless your shooting perfect bullseyes with every archery shot. So please Im dying to know Robb. How were the Fictional Adam and Eve perfect? Is disobeying your master perfect? a perfect specimen, how do you judge if there are no imperfect versions?
God made a perfect world, and He gave the perfect man and woman the privilege of choosing. Adam and Eve were created holy, but they had the choice to choose evil as we do today. Jesus was also created perfect and good, he had the choice to do evil or follow god. He never chose to do evil. Jesus was a perfect man and lived a perfect life. We are perfect people but choose an imperfect life.
Why he gave us this choice, scripture does not say. If he controls all our actions so we would not sin then we would be puppets with no real relationship to him.
I have to agree with BPS here. Define perfect, please.
We need to have a working definition for what constitutes "perfect" in this case before the discussion can productively continue. Otherwise, we may foray into dogma with no common concensus for what "perfect" means.
And dogma is the workings of man, not God. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 14:01:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Wendy, consider that God is not an artist but a Creator who made living beings with wills of their own.
As Kil stated, God is supposedly all-knowing. If we agree that God is an omniscient and omnipotent being, then to say we have free will is bogus. God already knows what we will do in any given situation, and he can manipulate the circumstances to get His desired result, i.e. heart-hardening, snake-infested apple trees, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
People are made with abilities like God, only they are limited.
Limited perfection?
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Because human beings chose to disobey God's simple commands, they became a rebellious race, corrupted by their sinful actions.
I am agnostic, but for the stake of discussion, had Adam and Eve not sinned the rebellious race would never have come to be. Sin was pre-ordained, and essential in order for "man" to exist.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
At times, certain humans are "out of control" wreaking havok on other people and causing much harm and pain. God, the Creator, is forced, in love for those not so inclined to rebell, to deal harshly with many who are out of control.
You're kidding, right? Tell me you're kidding.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
To not do so would be like firing all the police force and judges and sending them home. Now tell me how would our world look without any law or enforcement? God is behind the order we see in society, the laws and regulations that help men coexist peacably.
Were that true, it would explain a lot. God (and we're assuming for the sake of this discussion that He exists) is entirely arbitrary.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Is it so hard to think that God would sometimes have to deal hard with certain groups or individuals?
No, that would be understandable were there any order, justice or logic to His actions. If I ran my household the way God runs His, I would both punish and reward my children without regard for their accomplishments or transgressions.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Don't we see many "disasters" and wars today that in one way or another God is using to deal with people?
I can't speak for you. I dont.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
God hasn't changed, there is just no one individual writing down these events and explaining them to us, not that most would even listen.
Res ipsa loquitur.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 14:17:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Robb
I have to agree with BPS here. Define perfect, please.
We need to have a working definition for what constitutes "perfect" in this case before the discussion can productively continue. Otherwise, we may foray into dogma with no common concensus for what "perfect" means.
I tried to define it earlier as this:
If someone beleives that God is the creator of everything then perfect is what God says it is. He says that his creation was perfect.
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
or
A perfect person is someone that lives a sinless life according to the teachings of the bible since god created us without sin.
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 14:44:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
"He is the rock" <-- god refering to himself as he?, I doubt it, Man wrote the Bible, not god.
Please explain how this proves that man wrote the bible. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2004 : 16:19:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
I wonder if god ever sends bad stuff his own way? You know, so he doesn't stagnate and can "grow" as a deity.
All the sinful behavior we human beings engage in IS sending bad stuff God's way. According to the Bible, God is grieved by our evil actions, as He, like a father who grieves over a wayward child, grieves over his wayward creation, each individual known and loved by Him.
Also, why can't god abide sin? Who put those conditions on him? I thought he could abide anything. It seems remarkable to me that a diety could make a creature capable of performing an act which itself finds an anathema. For a being without limits, he has a pretty strict set of rules for us.
Just as humans can't abide living in our own excrement and filth, so God can't abide our sinful ways in His heaven, so He doesn't let people live there who love to practice sinful living. God is longsuffering toward all sinners and wants them to be saved -- to turn from their evil ways and turn to HIM for mercy and grace and guidance. He gives men that choice, as love affords all a choice. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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