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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
 Posted - 09/11/2001 : 07:47:15
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Who did it? What are the probable repercussions? What role, if any, did religion and credulity play in this tragedy?
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 08:02:26 [Permalink]
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I just heard that today is the anniversary of the Camp David Accords, and that another plane has been crashed (or just crashed) near or at Camp David. [Haven't heard this again, so not sure if it's true.]
I guess religion is (or was) the underlying cause of the troubles between Palestine and everyone else (it seems). But is it about religion anymore, or has it just been going on so long that the initial causes are no longer important?
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane...
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 09/11/2001 08:26:53 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 08:21:14 [Permalink]
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I would at least wait for some real information before pointing a finger. It's easy to imagine that it's some of the usual suspects especially on such a scale but Oklahoma City wasn't about religion.
I have to tell you that some of the things I've seen on TV today are going to be hard to forget.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 08:26:04 [Permalink]
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There were already reports of Palestinian groups claiming responsibility, but you are of course correct, and it should be confirmed before pointing any fingers.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 09:26:25 [Permalink]
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The Taliban has expressed remorse over these terrorist acts. I heard a couple hours ago that they were getting an announcement ready and expected the worst from them. It doesn't excuse many things they have done but they surprised me.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 09:48:48 [Permalink]
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Ed woke me up this morning with the news that we were under attack. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I'm numb.
Do we have any members on the board from NYC? I have friends at the Pentegon, and am feeling a little frantic right now.
As of right now, there's a couple of thousand Palistinians holding a celebration, according to the news.
Right now, I'm upset, angry, and terrified. I'm feeling pretty reactionary, so my gut feeling is to find the country responsible and eradicate it. I know that is wrong. Maybe I'll feel differently after the heart meds that Ed has been stuffing into me all morning kick in.
Sorry for the disjointed rambling.
Lisa
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 09:55:14 [Permalink]
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You sound a lot calmer than some Lisa. I have heard cries of "Nuke 'em!" here and there and we don't even know who to nuke. I can understand why people react like that but I don't see anything approximating justice involving the indiscriminate killing of innocents. That would be as wrong as these attacks.
As for celebration in Palestine...I can understand why they feel the way they do. Their country has been occupied by an invading army for a good 30 years and it's been the United State's almost fanatic support of Israel that's let the occupier's stay. No one had better blow what I'm saying here out of proportion. I'm just saying I understand why the Palestinians would celebrate.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 10:13:28 [Permalink]
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At first when I saw the Taliban's statement earlier I thought "These guys aren't all bad" but after I thought about it some more I don't think that anymore. More like they are scared of retribution. Hell they should be.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 10:36:14 [Permalink]
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The priority should be to determine exactly who was behind it and who aided them and proceed from there. If it turns out that a foreign government played a roll in it, then a military response is appropriate, with the specific goal of removing that government from power. Otherwise, we will have to be content to just try to find and arrest or kill the members of the group responsible. As much as I would like to nuke someone right now, my better nature tells me that would just results in more innocent people being killed and that isn't really what I want.
As to the Taliban, It doesn't surprize me that they issued statements of sympathy. After all, Bin Laden is the current suspect #1 and he's been hiding out in Afghanistan for years. The Taliban understand that if the US does decide to go off half cocked to find a retribution target of convenience, they are way up on the list. Wether they are the least bit sincere is anyone's guess.
Hopefully, the Bush is smart enough not to do something really stupid (or at least his advisors), but you never know.
Of course finding the truth will take time and may not prove very satisfying since it may have been a relatively small group, most of whom may have died in the process of committing the act. But it is still the correct way to proceed.
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 12:40:14 [Permalink]
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As was the case in the Oklahoma City bombing, various prominent public figures including the president of the United States have suggested that we turn to God in this time of overwhelming tragedy for our nation. I personally find this theistic reaction befuddling, if not downright incomprehensible.
If there is a God, then He has far better intelligence gathering capabilities than the FBI and CIA, and far more deterrent capability than the U.S. Armed forces, yet He did absolutely nothing to avert this tragedy. He was present for every covert terrorist planning meeting that lead up to this unprecedented attack. He watched as the terrorists smuggled their weapons on board the aircraft, he sat next to them as the flights took off, he stood by as they forcibly wrested control of the airplanes from the pilots and crew. Aboard the aircraft, as young children cried and clutched at their mother's breasts, God stood silently by, indifferent to their impending doom. At every single step in the process he allowed these religious fanatics to go about their business, although he could have quite easily intervened, dramatically or imperceptibly, in any number of ways. If government officials had knowingly stood by while such things happened, would we turn to them during and after the tragedy? Quite the contrary, we'd have them 'hanged' for high treason and criminal conspiracy to commit murder. Why then should we turn to God now that we find ourselves in the midst of this horrific situation?
There is only one sensible answer to the above absurdities: there is no loving being watching over us from above. Which brings us to another crucial point -- although this homicidal act has been condemned as "godless" it is in fact precisely the opposite. It was committed by "godly" men, True Believers who really thought were doing the "Will of God" and would be rewarded accordingly in the afterlife. Without the fervor of religious fanaticism and the promise of a paradisiacal hereafter, such suicidal actions would not have been perpetrated upon the thousands of innocent victims now dead or wounded.
In summary, not only would a real God be to blame for his inaction, but a God who exists only in the minds of His followers would also stand to blame. Whatever the case may be, God is the very last place we should turn in this time of need. Let us instead turn to those who will actually help us get through this, our fellow human beings.
Edited by - tergiversant on 09/11/2001 17:01:14 |
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 19:09:50 [Permalink]
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All very logical but it kind of misses the point. You can blame God if you like. I plan to put the blame where it belongs - with the terrorists and their supporters.
And if those who lost friends or loved ones turn to God for comfort, I don't think this is the time to be telling them any different. Sometimes you have to let people believe whatever gets them through the rough spots.
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 22:39:55 [Permalink]
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Espritch, I agree with your sentiment, but it does irritate me that our president not only invoked "God," but quoted his bible at us. I was too aware of the futility of his request for prayers to be touched by it.
I am afraid I'm not clever enough to come up with a good signature, eh? |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 13:10:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Espritch, I agree with your sentiment, but it does irritate me that our president not only invoked "God," but quoted his bible at us. I was too aware of the futility of his request for prayers to be touched by it.
Also, it's a case of their gawd (which is the wrong one) and our gawd (which is the right one), despite it's lack of existence.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 18:17:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
All very logical but it kind of misses the point. You can blame God if you like. I plan to put the blame where it belongs - with the terrorists and their supporters.
As do I, of course. There is no god to blame. However, it disgusts me that the evangelists are trying to win souls using this tragedy as religious propaganda, and that the politicians are playing into their hands. Supernatural intevention is not forthcoming, we must turn to humanity for the solution.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 22:08:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Supernatural intevention is not forthcoming, we must turn to humanity for the solution.
Ummm...can we have a third option? Right now, my opinion of humanity is not really all that optimistic. 
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 22:18:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Supernatural intevention is not forthcoming, we must turn to humanity for the solution.
Ummm...can we have a third option? Right now, my opinion of humanity is not really all that optimistic.
Space aliens from the planet Zooba?
Nope, he's right. Humanity got themselves into this, humanity will have to get itself out.
Lisa
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