|
|
|
Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
 Posted - 09/15/2001 : 07:02:36 [Permalink]
|
quote:
One can only wonder what might have been avoided were we able to place a few operatives in bin Laden's organization.
I have heard that it is a matter of a recruitment problem. No one wants to live in the mountains of Afghanistan in tents with little food of low quality and no women for perhaps as much as 5 years at a time. That is what it would take to blend in.
quote:
Now they are cut back to fewer than 800 field agents.
That was part of the "peace dividend" of the late 80's, remember? After the Berlin wall went down and the Soviet Union dissolved. Operatives were reduecd under the George H W Bush Presidency. And why not? Those 800 operatives are about 50% of the maximum during the height of the Cold War during the Carter and Reagan Administrations. What you forget is that during the Cold War, about 80% of the operatives spied on the Soviet Union in either the USSR or in Europe. We still have more operatives elsewhere and the big problem (the USSR) was gone.
As for the CIA not really doing the bad things that it is accused of, I will not discusss that at this time except to say, read the Kissinger papers recently declassified or the book "In Retrospect" by Robert McNamara (one who would know).
Greg.
|
 |
|
|
rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 08:56:04 [Permalink]
|
I live in a small city in Canada with a population of 46000 and one of our locals, who went to the same high school I did, at the same time I did, was in the WTC and is now missing. When I heard of this I could not believe the vastness of this horrible incident, and how many lives affected by it.
"What would chairs look like if our knees bent the other way" |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 12:39:15 [Permalink]
|
quote:
I have heard that it is a matter of a recruitment problem. No one wants to live in the mountains of Afghanistan in tents with little food of low quality and no women for perhaps as much as 5 years at a time. That is what it would take to blend in.
Considering the magnitude of recent events it might be a lot easier to find individuals willing to do just that or even more now. A lot of sacrifices are going to come easier than they would have last week.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 12:51:56 [Permalink]
|
quote:
I have heard that it is a matter of a recruitment problem. No one wants to live in the mountains of Afghanistan in tents with little food of low quality and no women for perhaps as much as 5 years at a time.
The problem with recruitment deals with the hiring of, what we used to call, vendors. That is local crooks, scoundrels and villains. A ruling was passed by Congress that you couldn't hire these "locals" unless they were checked out and approved by Washington. Without Washington's approval there is no way to pay them and these guys aren't docents.
-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
|
|
|
Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 13:47:53 [Permalink]
|
Kind of a bastardly dilemma, isn't it. It could be that the only way to effectively fight terrorism is by creating a clandestine arm of the military which uses the same tactics as the terrorists--car bombs, snipers, local criminal elements, etc. And then we end up supporting something like the death squads in El Salvador or the foul murdering military in Guatamala, and it's so offensive we discontinue the program...and we're back where we started.
Mind you, I don't have any answers. Wish the heck I did.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes" |
|
|
|
Rift
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 14:13:38 [Permalink]
|
quote:
I live in a small city in Canada with a population of 46000 and one of our locals, who went to the same high school I did, at the same time I did, was in the WTC and is now missing. When I heard of this I could not believe the vastness of this horrible incident, and how many lives affected by it.
I read an editorial (sorry, I've lost the link, and it's a shame, it was a good editorial) that said when the dust settles we are all going to be shocked by the 'degree of seperation' and how close this was to all of us. The writer of the editorial said (and I agree with him) that we will all either know somebody killed, or will know somebody who knew somebody that was killed. I already have a really good friend who told me she has a co-worker who was 200 yards from the pentagon, and that her best-friend had and aunt an uncle on one of the flights.
And it doesn't just stop here in the US. You're posting from canada... The death toll of British is suppose to go up to 500. The french have at least 80 missing, and the australians 100, the last I heard, and all the Philipines is saying is 'a substantial number'. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of nations have lost at least one national in this.
Anybody that thinks that this was *just* an attack on the US is sorely mistaken...
"Goddammit! The world is just filling up with more and more idiots! And the computer is giving them access to the world! They're
spreading their stupidity! At least they were contained before--now they're on the loose everywhere!"? |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 14:39:32 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Anybody that thinks that this was *just* an attack on the US is sorely mistaken...
It was called the World Trade Center not the US Trade Center. I think the terrorists may regret their choice of target in the end because what they did will have backfired so badly because so many from so many nations were effected the terrorists.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
|
|
|
Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 16:26:30 [Permalink]
|
quote:
... I think the terrorists may regret their choice of target in the end because what they did will have backfired so badly because so many from so many nations were effected the terrorists.
They won't regret a thing until we stop talking about what we're going to do in retaliation and actually do it.
Especially if it turns out that all we do is talk about it, like after the Cole bombing. |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 17:43:15 [Permalink]
|
quote:
It could be that the only way to effectively fight terrorism is by creating a clandestine arm of the military which uses the same tactics as the terrorists--car bombs, snipers, local criminal elements, etc.
No not at all. You don't have to become a cockroach to kill a cockroach. You only have toe step on them.
The reason they pull this terrorist shit is that they don't have the budget for B-52s and smart bombs.
We have plenty of money and more than enough resolve.
This is no Palestine/Israel tit for tat. There will be no slap on the wrist and wait to see what they will do next. This will be extermination. They will be gone in the end.
-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
|
|
|
The Bad Astronomer
Skeptic Friend
137 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 20:19:56 [Permalink]
|
quote:
The reason they pull this terrorist shit is that they don't have the budget for B-52s and smart bombs.
I don't believe this is correct. A B52 or a missile coming in is a fat target that is relatively easy to hit and destroy. The way they fight now is to induce terror, hence their name. This is more shadowy, more difficult to pin down, less predictable. It's a lot more disconcerting, which is exactly why they do it this way.
*****
The Bad Astronomer
http://www.badastronomy.com
"With tremendous respect to [the] BA, the problem isn't getting scientists to talk, the problem can be getting them to shut up." |
|
|
|
Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 20:27:40 [Permalink]
|
The Taliban have really stepped into the brown stuff with both feet.
A while back, they managed to piss of all of what we call "Arabic" nations by declaring they had the only true form of Islam. King Fahd of Saudi Arabia and Sultan Quaboos of Oman weren't amused.
Then there was the whole Buddah thing.
Now the Taliban has just announced that any Islamic country that supports us will suffer dire concequences.
My husband dealt with Muslims every day while he was in Oman, and learned a lot. Insults and threats will get you nothing but a Darwin award. These people have an entire culture built around "saving face".
The Taliban has managed to tick off just about every Islamic nation on earth. The only thing these other nations lacked was a really good excuse for war.
Lisa
|
|
|
|
Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 06:43:48 [Permalink]
|
quote:
don't believe this is correct. A B52 or a missile coming in is a fat target that is relatively easy to hit and destroy. The way they fight now is to induce terror, hence their name. This is more shadowy, more difficult to pin down, less predictable. It's a lot more disconcerting, which is exactly why they do it this way.
The purpose of terrorism is to destroy a nation from within. Using it's own government. What the terrorists expect is for the US government to start leaning on it's own people, eventually to the point that we're not going to take it any more.
Greg.
|
|
|
|
James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 07:40:48 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Now the Taliban has just announced that any Islamic country that supports us will suffer dire concequences.
And I thought it was bad when they said that any action by the US would be retaliated. My reaction: Sure, you can try again...if there's anyone left after we're done.
Another big joke: The Taliban saying they will try bin Laden in their country and in an Islamic court if the US came up with enough proof that he did it. The chances of them even getting bin Laden into one of their jails: slim to nil and slim has left the planet.
quote:
My husband dealt with Muslims every day while he was in Oman, and learned a lot. Insults and threats will get you nothing but a Darwin award. These people have an entire culture built around "saving face".
You think we can enroll Falwell into these culture classes? Nah.
quote:
The Taliban has managed to tick off just about every Islamic nation on earth. The only thing these other nations lacked was a really good excuse for war.
And the equipment and resources for a war. Now, they have them. Or rather, they will.
The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet. |
|
|
|
Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 10:36:48 [Permalink]
|
quote:
You think we can enroll Falwell into these culture classes? Nah.
Ed was on pretty good footing before he ever arrived in Oman. He attended a military/state dept run seminar about mid east culture. Several of his predecessors did not attend this class and as a result, inadvertantly made some major faux pas.
Ed says that understanding the culture made the last year the easiest of his military career. We have a standing invitation from several Omanis to returned for a visit.
Unfortunatly, the bigots of the world will never understand this. I think they are afraid. If they connect with another culture, they might discover that different beliefs and lifestyls are as worthy and valid as their own.
Lisa
|
|
|
|
Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 11:06:22 [Permalink]
|
quote:
And the equipment and resources for a war. Now, they have them. Or rather, they will.
Pakistan already has nuclear capability.
Greg.
|
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
