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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
 Posted - 09/16/2001 : 11:53:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
The Taliban have really stepped into the brown stuff with both feet.
A while back, they managed to piss of all of what we call "Arabic" nations by declaring they had the only true form of Islam. King Fahd of Saudi Arabia and Sultan Quaboos of Oman weren't amused.
Then there was the whole Buddah thing.
Now the Taliban has just announced that any Islamic country that supports us will suffer dire concequences.
My husband dealt with Muslims every day while he was in Oman, and learned a lot. Insults and threats will get you nothing but a Darwin award. These people have an entire culture built around "saving face".
The Taliban has managed to tick off just about every Islamic nation on earth. The only thing these other nations lacked was a really good excuse for war.
Lisa, I believe you are quite correct in this observation. There appears to be an extraordinarily unlikely series of events that are now unfolding because the Taliban (or Taleban, as BBC world news calls them - I don't know which is correct) is considered a rogue state by other Arabic and Islamic nations.
Recent developments that are mind-boggling:
1) The depth of cooperation from Pakistan, including their demand to the Taliban to hand over bin Laden or suffer the consequences.
2) The tentative inquiries from Iran about joining the anti-terrorist coalition (a bit of a howler, considering how much terrorism they've sponsored) and the fact that they've closed the borders with Afghanistan.
3) The consideration from the former Soviet republic of Tajikstan to allow the coalition military forces to use their facilities and air space.
4) 50,000 Hindus marched in a rally that turned violent in southern India, demanding the destruction of the Taliban (and Pakistan). This could turn into a larger regional war in a big fat hurry.
Speaking of Darwin awards, the Taliban are on their way to the all-century top category winner. They have made their choice: protect bin Laden. This extraordinarily stupid decision shows that reason and logic have long ago deserted the minds of their leadership. How naïve do they think we are, telling us that this couldn't have been done by bin Laden because there are no airplanes in Afghanistan for training or that he doesn't have access to communication devices (yeah, we really believe that one)? They are apparently willing to sacrifice themselves for this cowardly and evil bastard rather than consider any reasonable alternatives that could spare the lives of the people in their country. (I call bin Laden a coward because he sits in his protected hillside cave saying “I didn't do it!” while his carefully selected terrorist troupes who did his bidding are being scraped off of smoking rubble. Those fanatics who hijacked and flew the planes were perhaps insane or blinded by hate or motivated by religious fervor, but they certainly weren't cowardly. Their connections to his network are becoming clearer by the hour). Of course, I also don't believe the Taliban care one iota about the Afghani people, considering the draconian measures they implement daily to make their citizens' lives more and more unbearable. One thing to possibly consider: This course of national suicide may have been deliberately planned by the Taliban leadership to show their utter devotion to their beliefs and strength of will against the “Great Satan” (which is everybody else).
Never underestimate the collective power of fanaticism. We have seen it time and time again on this planet (at Jonestown, in Cambodia, in Germany, in China, in Rwanda, in North Korea, to mention but a few). The warning signs have been there but we have been blinded by our daily lives and the need to be entertained rather than informed. (“Oh, more crap |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 13:05:38 [Permalink]
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While it's an extremely dangerous thing to do, I can understand why the Taliban continues to back Osama bin Laden. In Afghanistan the man is a national hero. I think it's safe to say that he's a hero to a lot of people outside of Afghanistan as well.
Has anyone considered that the US has harbored what could be considered terrorists over the years and backed terrorist campaigns around the world? Was it as wrong then as it was Tuesday? I think all terrorism is wrong but I think Americans should think about how hypocritical we look. I suppose I will take a lot of flak for this but I think it's a very good point. It just depends on the labels you use. When we funded Sandanista rebels they were "freedom fighters" when Ronald Reagan mentionaed them. What do you think they were called in Nicarauga? I could list many such examples. The cold war lasted a long time. I bet there are some good examples from the last few years, too.
Maybe this belonged in the US Responsibility thread, but I had to say something here about why the Taliban continues to harbor bin Laden.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 13:31:58 [Permalink]
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Atomic -
I'm going to step away now from this board for a while (perhaps a long while; perhaps forever) because I can't trust myself to respond to your message without losing my cool completely.
One thing, briefly and then I'm outta here:
We have made many foreign policy mistakes, no doubt, over the course of our existence. No one said it was easy or that the decisions would always be correct or in the best interests of democracy and the advancement of human rights. The nature of our society fortunately allows for free exchange of information and opinion and correction and changes in the "guard" when we feel that incorrect judgement has been used. However, our past mistakes (and current ones) IN NO WAY justify what happened to innocent Americans on Tuesday nor does it EVER, EVER justify this level of fanaticism. The Taliban has essentially declared war on its own people and everyone else to make special brownie points with their version of Allah. They will never bring bin Laden to justice (what a farce that we think they would). Should mass murderers be freed or go unpunished because we might piss somebody off bringing them to justice or step on their human rights? Let's say I become a victim of murder - should my murderer go free because I, at one time, used foul language or don't believe in god or because I made a bad decision in my youth?
I used to think I might be a liberal, but this kind of mushy thinking is absolutely nauseating.
I apologize if I've offended others on this board, but I am of the belief (still, five days after this event) that this evil must be rooted out and destroyed. Part of that process may involve policy changes on the part of the United States, but to let this go without an appropriate response because we may have "sinned" is absurd. That's just as bad as Falwell.
  
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Edited by - rubysue on 09/16/2001 15:05:40 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 16:45:27 [Permalink]
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Primary difference @tomic - they kept it within their own borders.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 16:52:50 [Permalink]
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I agree that whatever the US did does not make it OK for terrorists to attack our civilians here. But I do know that the US has sponsored groups that have killed civilians. That was also wrong and my only point. It is hypocracy. I'm sorry if this pisses you off to the point of not wanting to discuss it or any other issue any longer. My opinion is just one here and I fully expected my statement to irritate people but i stand by it because I think it's true.
My wish was not to piss anyone off but to bring up what I thought was an important point even though many people are so angry.
Trish: Of course they kept it within their own borders. When you fight a proxy war somewhere it's usually not in your own country. How about Cuba? We have allowed Cuban groups to do a lot and trained and funded them and encouraged them to go do terrorist acts in another country. If there is a difference between this and what happened Tuesday, besides scale, I would like to see it.
One other thing about Nicaragua: I think it should be mentioned how that was financed after congress cut funding. To fund one group of terrorists we sold weapons to another for one of the biggest of all the hypocritical acts I've ever heard of.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 17:35:40 [Permalink]
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Back just briefly to a statement I made earlier, that perhaps the only way to deal effectively with terrorism is by turning their tactics back on them. Two quick points:
1. If Afghanistan defies the world and continues to harbor bin Laden, it may be that only a full-scale war with Afghanistan would be able to dislodge him. As the Soviet Union found, the terrain and people can make that a very bloody proposition.
2. Osama bin Laden aside, I would hope that this tragedy spurs us to fight terrorism on a continuing basis. Full-scale military operations might be less effective than the sort of semi-secret strike force that Israel has put in place.
Now I'm not saying we should throw up our hands and say it's an impossible task. Not at all. But we must (imho) keep our options open and not underestimate the difficulty of what we must do. I would not want ten times as many young Americans to die fighting in Afghanistan as died in the WTC tragedy, especially if our goals can be accomplished otherwise.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes" |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 19:47:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
But I do know that the US has sponsored groups that have killed civilians. That was also wrong and my only point. It is hypocracy.
So what? What is your purpose of pointing this out?
Is it fair to say "The U.S. is hypocritical" because of the actions of an administration 20 years ago?
This sounds like the ridiculous juvenile argument a teenager gives when they are caught with a joint, and find out their parents smoked one or two themselves when they were young. The teenager calls them "hypocrites", like they don't have any right to condemn their child's drug use.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 20:57:47 [Permalink]
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Something else scary to think about: I've heard more than one person express a wish for a larger active duty presense in this country. I've talked to one lady who says we should be in every airport and plane, and walking the beat with cops. I pointed out that this is called martial law, and she was unfazed. She said "I want to feel safe".
Safety aside, I feel martial law would be a Bad Thing. One of our country's tenets in not letting the military run things. (Except wars, we're good at that)
Lisa
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 21:57:11 [Permalink]
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20 years ago? Try 5, 10 or 15 years. Don't you realize that a lot of this hatred towards the US has taken years and the dedicated work of multiple administrations to develop into what it is now? Do you realize what Osama bin Laden's beef with the US is?? That started about 10 years ago. The attack we are discussing took some time to plan anyway.
I don't feel I deserved that personally but cheers to you if you do I guess. I'm afraid that this is about what I expected. It is a rather sore spot for Americans that I have noticed few ever want to deal with. But these things that happened years ago, I feel, are significant cause of Tuesday's attack.
Of course, lax airport security was what ultimately allowed is to happen regardless of why anyone would attempt it in the first place.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Rift
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 22:29:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Is it fair to say "The U.S. is hypocritical" because of the actions of an administration 20 years ago?
I saw somebody (on usenet I think, I'll try to find the 'list' again) post a list of american atrocities in the past and had the unmitigated gall to list slavery and the fact that many died on slave boats bringing slaves to america.
Never mind the fact that was nearly 150 years ago, about 30 administrations ago, and the fact that we still haven't fought a war that had more american causulties then the civil war. Most states have NEVER had slavery (except some when they were still british perhaps).
How the hell can you claim the WTC had anything to do with slavery??? sheesh. (sorry but I'm pissed)
The anti-american element is having almost as much a field day with this as the damn psychics.
"Goddammit! The world is just filling up with more and more idiots! And the computer is giving them access to the world! They're
spreading their stupidity! At least they were contained before--now they're on the loose everywhere!"? |
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lpetrich
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 22:50:15 [Permalink]
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Is it just me or does it seem that Tiptup is desperate for scapegoats? He presents zero direct evidence for his views.
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 02:03:55 [Permalink]
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The taliban regime has been supporting bin Laden and other terrorist organisations for several years. Bin Laden has preached holy war against the US, its citizens and allies for a long time.
Should they talibans get away with a "Oops we didnt think he/they would do that! Sorry!" ?
Should bin Laden get off the hook if he wasn't involved?
This and other terror supporting regimes must be brought down. Preferably with the help of islamic countries. A moslem-western war could be catastrophic. A (mostly) united world against terrorism can lead to something good.
By the way, can someone smack Falwell from me? Its not easy getting across the Atlantic these days.
"A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45"
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 02:18:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Should they talibans get away with a "Oops we didnt think he/they would do that! Sorry!" ?
Should bin Laden get off the hook if he wasn't involved?
One thing we do know: Even if someone Osama bin Laden was not responsible for this particular act, he has been tied to enough US deaths through other terrorist acts. And he's worked out of Afghanistan the whole time as far as I know.
A world united against terrorism is a great idea but I think that before too long it will be business as usual. Some country will allow some organization to use it's soil as a base from which to launch terrorist attacks as soon is there's a need. If the penalty is severe and it is enforced(that's the tough part isn't it?) things could be different.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 02:40:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
A world united against terrorism is a great idea but I think that before too long it will be business as usual. Some country will allow some organization to use it's soil as a base from which to launch terrorist attacks as soon is there's a need. If the penalty is severe and it is enforced(that's the tough part isn't it?) things could be different.
True, the world may be united now, but that will not last. As soon as the US starts using harsh language against the talibans a lot of countries will back down.
I still hope that the US/NATO response does not alienate all the sensible moslems in the world.
Of course France & China will be bitching anyway, but who cares?
"A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45"
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 05:31:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't feel I deserved that personally but cheers to you if you do I guess.
 Deserved what?
I'm just asking why you feel the need to point out that you think "the U.S." is hypocritical, and wondering what you mean by "the U.S."
Is the government hypocritical? Every U.S. citizen? Do we not have a right to act against terrorism because sometime in our past we may have supported terrorists in one way or another?
I didn't mention it, but slavery was the first thing that popped into my head when I read your post. I thought, "Does he think "the U.S." is hypocritical for denouncing slavery?!"
It just seems you are taking petty and cynical little pot shots at the U.S.
I'm just curious as to what your motivations are.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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