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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2001 : 19:48:39
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Poll Question:
Ought Congress formally declare war on terrorists in general and/or the nation-states known to support them?
Edited by - tergiversant on 09/12/2001 20:05:56
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Poll Status:
Locked »» |
Total Votes: 0 counted »» |
Last Vote:
never |
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 21:54:34 [Permalink]
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By depends, I mean we should declare war on terrorists and the state most directly responsible for the attack. It really isn't practical to try to take on all the sponsors of terrorism at once, but if we destroy one (by which I mean the governmentment - I don't really want to kill any more civilians than can be helped), it will serve as a object lesson to the others that sponsoring future acts of terrorism against the US will have consequences for the sponsors.
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 18:34:27 [Permalink]
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If our government made war against the nations/states which protected the criminals, there would be innocent people who would be killed. I think that was what happened to us in New York City. The perpetrators did this to us, whether we had anything at all to do with the actions of our government. Innocent people here were killed. I think that we should hunt the guilty down and exterminate them. In many of these countries, the common people have nothing to do with the decisions made by their governments and they have no way of escaping their governments.
I would not want to become a part of an extermination program of our country which killed the innocent and the guilty indiscriminately.
If we copied the heinous crimes committed against our people, and retaliated against innocent victims, we would be no better than these vicious killers and equally guilty as a nation.
And then there would be a drive by them for revenge and it would be time for World War again.
ljbrs
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe
Edited by - ljbrs on 01/25/2002 19:01:46 |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2001 : 22:16:34 [Permalink]
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Depends
How do you declare war on an enemy, that has no borders, nor respects any? Declare war on terrorism, globally? Serve notice on countries, to stop and expell any terrorist cells they might have harbored, now, or be treated as an active enemy. Then follow through, wherever the trail may lead. Hit teams, hell yes! Know of no terrorist groups, that are signotories to the Geneva conventions, therefore no such restrictions need apply. Terrorize the damned terrorists. Nail one of their hero's and then booby trap his coffin. Follow the money, and then take it. Ol' Bin is known, a good starting point, but understand that he is just a starting point, and just might be mostly a decoy or diversion. Modern terrorism is a headless snake, there are cells, that are just support groups, for safe houses, credential suppliers, weapons, and the like. Their affiliations are loose, springing up for hit, then dissolving back into the darkness. And yes, some groups are also organized crime rings as well, the IRA comes to mind. These things might use a children's hospital or an orphanage, for a headquarters. To really do the job, we would have to take down their infrastructure, loose as it is. Its a damn hard nut to crack. But remember the terrorists are nothing less, than the enemy of civilization.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2001 : 11:17:01 [Permalink]
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If we are going to pursue military action, a natural and reasonable course of action, we must do it unilaterally and within a couple of weeks. We must also make certain that to the best of our abilities, only military and terrorist targets are taken out.
It must be unilateral because, trying to build an international concensus will take too much time thus lessening international sympathy for our cause. The result, a watered down response and never-ending sanctions that hurt far more innocent people than terrorists.
We also must not be swayed by the multinational corporate fear of "destabilization" and not do anything.
Greg.
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 08:50:12 [Permalink]
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i must say i find bush to be less than convincing with his promise to get terrorists everywhere. the congress showed unusual common sense in only authorizing action against those involved in the new york and dc attacks. i don't trust bush to lead an old lady across the street, much less to lead the nation through a crisis.
bush is a great guy to party with but when the going gats tough i would take clinton any day.
comrade billyboy |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 11:52:14 [Permalink]
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A formal declaration of war would at least have the effect of confirming an important principle which has become rather murky over the last few decades:
That the responsibility for the use of military force ultimately lies with the American people, transferred through our representatives, and is not an executive prerogative.
If you read the text of the declarations from both World Wars (I have), one of the striking things about them is that they actually constitute an order given by Congress to the President. Having formally recognized the existence of war, specifying exactly with whom we are at war (this is important-it's foolish to undertake a task without understanding its limits) and having stated the reasons behind that conclusion, Congress then directs the President, in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief, to, basically, get on with it.
Reasserting the basic Constitutional structure of the nation might not be a bad idea, particularly since we can probably look forward to various factions among the "elite" trying to use this atrocity as a means of throwing the Constitution into the dustbin and dragging us back to the days of the Palmer Raids, protecting their own self-interest under the guise of protecting the people.
My flag flies until the day you try to make me fly it.
Boris Karloff died for your sins. |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 12:41:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
bush is a great guy to party with but when the going gats tough i would take clinton any day.
As things are now, I trust our Secretary of State.
I am afraid I'm not clever enough to come up with a good signature, eh? |
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Kaptain K
New Member
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 13:02:26 [Permalink]
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Hell yes. And don't wait for our "allies".
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!"
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 16:29:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
the congress showed unusual common sense in only authorizing action against those involved in the new york and dc attacks.
I agree. There's no telling who we would have been fighting otherwise. Perhaps we would have been propping up more opressive facsist leaders and driving others to blind suicidal hate of the US.
quote:
As things are now, I trust our Secretary of State.
He is by far the most experienced, level headed, and capable member of the cabinet. Let's hope that he is at the forefront of war policy.
Greg.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2001 : 15:54:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hell yes. And don't wait for our "allies".
Our allies have acted as allies should in my opinion. Dunno if they deserved the quotes around them. Sometimes allies quarrel but if they are behind you when it really means something,as they have now, then I would call them true allies.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 06:53:38 [Permalink]
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A formal declaration of war isn't going to work. It is a legal document and because of that you need to legally define the word "terrorist", "terrorist state", "supporting state" and a whole host of terms and phrases. You need to declare what terrorist organizations you are going after. Please refer to
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/rpt/fto/index.cfm?docid=2801
for the State Department list of foreign terrorist organizations. The list is compiled every 2 years and includes 28 organizations. Al-Qa'ida is almost lost in the shuffle.
Now, let's move on to practicalities.
1. 28 terrorist organizations? Okay. You can use the family plan and choose one from column A and 1 from column B. With 3 you get egg rolls.
2. Germany was an unwitting host to Al-Qa'ida cells. Does that mean we declare war on Germany because they were as stupid as we were?
3. Do you really think the Brits will appreciate our "dropping in" to hit a terroist cell in Chelsey during their 4 o'clock tea time?
4. If we declare war on Hamas, does that mean the Israelies can stand back while WE get our asses blown off by kids wearing GAP dynamite vests?
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Forget the formalities. We will wage war "Israeli style". Snipers, assasination, murder, extortion and bribery.
The official military response should be
"Ask me no questions and I will tell you no lies"
(:raig |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 07:35:31 [Permalink]
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I don't hold much hope for doing this without a lot of people who are powerless against the idea of support of terrorists losing a great deal. Remember many of those in "combat" against the U.S. in the Gulf War were those who were enemies of the Ba'ath party anyway.
How many Afghans who will die would even know what a map is, much less how to find New York on that map?
http://www.fair.org/media-beat/011012.html
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/15/2001 08:10:36 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 08:05:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Now, let's move on to practicalities.
1. 28 terrorist organizations? Okay. You can use the family plan and choose one from column A and 1 from column B. With 3 you get egg rolls.
2. Germany was an unwitting host to Al-Qa'ida cells. Does that mean we declare war on Germany because they were as stupid as we were?
3. Do you really think the Brits will appreciate our "dropping in" to hit a terroist cell in Chelsey during their 4 o'clock tea time?
4. If we declare war on Hamas, does that mean the Israelies can stand back while WE get our asses blown off by kids wearing GAP dynamite vests?
*****************************
Forget the formalities. We will wage war "Israeli style". Snipers, assasination, murder, extortion and bribery.
The official military response should be
"Ask me no questions and I will tell you no lies"
(:raig
Well Mespo_man, I think we also need to practice some reasonable restraint. The Germans and British both have police forces that are activating against terrorists in their respective countries.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 08:42:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well Mespo_man, I think we also need to practice some reasonable restraint. The Germans and British both have police forces that are activating against terrorists in their respective countries.
[Trish]
I agree, Trish. And a declaration of war is not "restraint". The NATO Alliance countries do have good police organizations that can deal will terrorist threats.
In the meantime, the war will also be waged in the accounting departments of major banks, at airline ticket counters and travel agencies, in telephone switching buildings and a host of other innocuous places. And I dare say, that includes the press. I was fascinated with an interview Nic Robertson of CNN conducted with Al Qaeda representatives in Pakistan.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/12/gen.attack.on.terror/index.html
They appreciate the value of good PR as much as we do. Special Forces operatives could easily have tailed the reps and blown them away, quietly. This is going to be a kinky war.
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2002 : 22:20:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hell yes. And don't wait for our "allies".
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!"
I think our country has always been there to help, we have our own problems with a 20,000 km coastline and boatloads of illegal immigrants, however we still rally behind the US one hundred percent with our troops, boats and also emotionally. Dont forget there are only 18 million of us....
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin |
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