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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 02/07/2005 : 09:41:24 [Permalink]
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Well we as humans and non-machine type organisims have many many things in common with other organisims of this planet, there are literally millions of things which we can add up, all suggesting evolution from this set of creatures, we also have evidence that protiens can become more complicated from various forces such as high pressure impacts. All of biology from microscopic to blue whales agrees with evolutionary theory.
Now for the robot example to be congruant, this must be a generation far removed from the original with no human related data surviving from then, they must be able to analyse evidence logically and must possess evidence that mechanized life can form from non-mechanized life.
Still this is just another problem because the robots may see humans as the organisim they evoloved from and not a "creator". But if they devolop boimechanical forms they could literally evolove themselves into a non-mechanized creature adding another wrench. Studies show we may soon be able to print any kind of cell tissue we need from bones to hearts, intelligent self-improving machines might not use metals at all in the future.
So in the end its the same problem we have, there is not evidence for direct "God induced" evolution or in the case of robots evidence of human induced evolution so until then it is all speculation and any solution is as good as another. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 02/07/2005 09:42:32 |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 10:05:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Duaa
<snip>
..imagine mankind has invented a very very advanced robot .. imagine we made a city for these robots and programmed them with the ability to think .. analyse .. charge their own power .. and even manufacture tiny robots like them ! now these robots don't see us right ? imagine we monitor them and one day we saw them saying : '' nobody made me .. I was a result of absolute coincidence .. or I was once another machine that evolution led me to be an intellegent robot ''
That would certainly be ironic.
But seriously let's continue the analogy. If humans faked huge amounts of evidence, such as the equivalent of a fossil record for robots, then we would only have ourselves to blame for the false conclusions the robots arrived at when they discovered it.
If God created man in the manner you describe then He also planted a staggering amount of misleading evidence. Does it seem likely to you that God would do this? If not then how do you explain the evidence of the fossil record?
Going back to your analagy... If humans didn't fake any evidence and the robots arrived at their belief in evolution in spite of evidence to the contrary, then it becomes a cautionary tale (Quite a good one too) about the dangers of reasoning from belief rather than from the evidence.
In the non-robot case, the evidence is rather one sided in its support of evolution.
It's an intriguing analogy Duaa, but I don't think it supports your point. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 10:47:22 [Permalink]
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| To continue the analogy, we would also need to introduce into the robot world a book (or whatever they use) which said that humans created them, and that any robot which "died" believing what the book said would reap some sort of reward after death. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 10:54:26 [Permalink]
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| Y'know, that's a quite interesting idea, Dave... |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 11:11:20 [Permalink]
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Duaa, you said:
quote:
scientists say that to state any theory u must prove it infront of ur eyes and moreover to have a theory u must repeat it's procedure .. but evolution theory strongly contradicts these basics .. nobody saw the phase when monkeys developed into men !
This statement is not accurate. Science does not need something to happen 'before our eyes' for a theory to be accepted.
A theory needs evidence. One of the pieces of evidence is the fossil record. You do not need to repeat the procedure of man and monkeys having a common ancestor (monkeys did not devlope into man). With the theory of evolution you can make predictions - such as there should not be any human / dinosaur overlap in the fossil record.
There is a theory on the composition of the interior of the earth. We cannot 'see' the interior of the earth yet there is plenty of evidence to support the theory.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 11:13:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
try to think outside the box guys
From a stated theist... that is an amusing comment.
quote:
scientists say that to state any theory u must prove it infront of ur eyes and moreover to have a theory u must repeat it's procedure .. but evolution theory strongly contradicts these basics .. nobody saw the phase when monkeys developed into men ! evolution staters assume that this happened somewhere in the old past .. but there is no proof .. and the only one who knows what really happened is the one who made everything happen .. which is God ..
(emphasis mine)
You are not the first theist to make this claim, and I doubt you will be the last. In my experience most of you who make this statement fall into one of three categories.
1. You are just ignorant of the evidence.
2. You are aware of the evidence and choose to lie about it.
3. You are delusional to the point that no ammount of evidence would ever be sufficient.
Sadly, most people who make the claim "there is no proof" fall into either 2 or 3.
Here's to hoping that you are in the first category.
And if you are NOT in category one... I'd be interested in hearing your explanation of HERVs, Alu transpositions, observed speciation events, the overwhelming number of transitional fossils, and so on.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 11:14:27 [Permalink]
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| Erm he means hypothysis. The compositional center of the earth has not the evidence to reach the Theory level. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 11:16:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I'm sure it's been done, Siberia. 
You party-pooper! |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 19:35:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Y'know, that's a quite interesting idea, Dave...
Kryten: "For is it not written in the Electronic Bible: the lamp shall lie down with the iron..."
Lister: "I'm a pantheist, not a frying-pan-theist"
Lister: "There's not such thing as a silicon heaven"
Kryten: "Then, where do all the calculators go?"
(reservations for possible slight misquotes) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 19:41:56 [Permalink]
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Ah, and Mab reminded me of Futurama.
But it's okay, Siberia: remember, there are only seven plots, so people have been rewriting stories since the eighth one. Doesn't deter me from wanting to be an author. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 02:14:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Here's to hoping that you are in the first category.
And if you are NOT in category one... I'd be interested in hearing your explanation of HERVs, Alu transpositions, observed speciation events, the overwhelming number of transitional fossils, and so on.
Duaa here you can do some of the following:- Subject change
- Only reply to some minor irrelevant point
- No reply at all
- Accuse people of this site of being close minded
- Threats of hellfire
- Ignore and repeat same assertions
- Use of some new logical fallacy to support original claim
- Look up HERVs, Alu transpositions, observed speciation, transitional fossils and answer Dude's questions, or ask questions of your own
All of these has been done before (some more than others). Guess which will give you most respect?
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 04:55:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
Duaa, you said:
quote:
scientists say that to state any theory u must prove it infront of ur eyes and moreover to have a theory u must repeat it's procedure .. but evolution theory strongly contradicts these basics .. nobody saw the phase when monkeys developed into men !
This statement is not accurate. Science does not need something to happen 'before our eyes' for a theory to be accepted.
A theory needs evidence. One of the pieces of evidence is the fossil record. You do not need to repeat the procedure of man and monkeys having a common ancestor (monkeys did not devlope into man). With the theory of evolution you can make predictions - such as there should not be any human / dinosaur overlap in the fossil record.
There is a theory on the composition of the interior of the earth. We cannot 'see' the interior of the earth yet there is plenty of evidence to support the theory.
Indeed.
Human evolution was much more complicated than simply evolving from an ape (which didn't happen, anyway).
Actually, apes and ourselves evolved from a common ancestor, as a serious browse of the two links above will demonstrate.
There were many species of Homo other than us. What is known thus far and how the knowledge was aquired is a fascinating story.
I am still waiting for more on the Toumai Skull, a 6 to 7,000,000 year old fossil, found in Chad, that might be close to that ancestor. It is still in review and has created much controversity, as might be expected with such a remarkable find.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 06:51:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Ah, and Mab reminded me of Futurama.
But it's okay, Siberia: remember, there are only seven plots, so people have been rewriting stories since the eighth one. Doesn't deter me from wanting to be an author.
Psh. I'm sure the Lord of the Rings isn't that original either.
(hey! leave me alone with my delusions) |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 07:14:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Psh. I'm sure the Lord of the Rings isn't that original either.
(hey! leave me alone with my delusions)
Come on! Hobbit finds ring, hobbit loses ring, hobbit finds ring again and destroys it is one of the oldest plots around. Sheesh! |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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