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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 01/28/2005 : 10:17:26 [Permalink]
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You sure can.
And I'm still waiting for the answer to my question: how can you tell that the vision of this world is not real, if the very concepts of real and not real are born from experiences bound to this illusory world? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 10:27:23 [Permalink]
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SP, I think you have a notion that reality is like a dream that changes depending on what you think it is. So rather than modifying what you think to fit with reality, you expect that reality will somehow change to match what you think. Is this right?
What do you think of the following statement?
Reality is real in a way that fantasies are not.
Do you agree or disagree? Why or why not? |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 10:28:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
The only part I agreed with in your post Furshur was the quote at the end.
Knowledge or facts are constrained to the beliefs of society, religous or scientific, that I thought we would all agree upon. The story of the science of light will show you that.
This is leading nowhere, I will agree to disagree with you.
I must say that I find all your posts entertaining and although we have differing views I would like to post a few more pictures for your skeptical analysis.
I'd like to look at them as well. I will be applying what is reasonably known concerning history of ancient peoples.
quote:
My intention is to ask the question, is there an alternative way of looking at the world ?. My pictures are just tools to stimulate discussion of the alternative. As Skeptics I would then be grateful to you for your opinions. Let's say a picture that disproved evolution failed. Can I try another one ?
I believe that it failed because it was not discussing evolution. Evolution is the fact that species change over time and the theory on the mechanism for that change. What you are referring to is anthropologic in nature. You are positing that ancient peoples knew the world in a more intimate manner than we suppose. Believing that ancient populations once were as advanced or more advanced than we are now and that knowledge was somehow lost during the last ice age. Given the lack of a written language prior to circa 3000 BCE, there was not a way, outside an oral tradition which degrades rapidly over time, to convey information over generational boundaries.
quote:
Off course, my ultimate goal is to share my perception with you but for the meantime I'll leave that in my weblog as these are evolving thoughts which are still a little confusing even to me.
Hopefully we'll have a longer relationship of agreeing to disagree, that way we have a clearer choice based on our evidence to support our ideas.
I have another picture which I'll post later in another topic on another board. No more cave paintings I promise, for now anyway !
I look forward to it. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 10:38:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
My intention is to ask the question, is there an alternative way of looking at the world ?. My pictures are just tools to stimulate discussion of the alternative. As Skeptics I would then be grateful to you for your opinions. Let's say a picture that disproved evolution failed. Can I try another one ?
Fine-- is there an alternate way to look at the world? I don't know. I'm not even sure what this means. How is it looked at now? Is there a definable way to describe how we look at it?
As for the pictures, I fail to see how they fit into the, well, er, picutre. Your suggestion seemed to be that prehistoric people had an understanding of the earth's geography that far exceeds what we give them credit for. Besides being an alternate view of prehistoric humans, who does this show an alternate way to see world?
Unless, when you say "alternate way" you simply mean "the way current science suggests prehistoric humans lived is incorrect; in fact they were really gifted cartographers with a vast knowledge of the earth." Is this the case?
Regardless, as has been pointed out countless times now, none of this "disproves" evolution. In fact, suggesting that is does is akin to holding that the Salem Witch Trials "disprove" Relativity.
But I look forward to some slightly more structured discussion! |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 14:43:34 [Permalink]
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SP said:
quote:
My intention is to ask the question, is there an alternative way of looking at the world ?.
Sure. You can look at the world as a mystery. You can ignore science and look at the world as a place where there are no boundries. You can assume the world is inhabited by ghosts and spirits. You can assume the air is full of UFOs and the woods are full of bigfoots (bigfeet?). It is possible to look at the world as a dream or a matrix style program or a science experiment by a grade schooler from an advanced race of aliens.
You can look at the world however you want - the problem is there is no evidence for this view. Since there is no evidence for that view it must be a 'made-up' view. Believing in a view of the world that is made up in your own mind, is by definition delusional. Why would you want to do that??
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend
60 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 14:49:35 [Permalink]
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Siberia, In answer to your question :
how can you tell that the vision of this world is not real, if the very concepts of real and not real are born from experiences bound to this illusory world?
The answer for me is that you cannot find the answer in this world alone. The idea is that there is no path in this world that does not lead to death. You first have to give up investing in this world and to trust that you are not alone and you can only start giving up once you have experienced that you are not alone, by the answers to questions you ask. Believe me, I cannot understand why friends of mine think that there is a god in this world, it just doesn't make sense. In this world, evolution makes sense but then even evolution has no meaning, evolving to what ? It's the goal which is important, the reason for being.
Once you have accepted that the world is not what you thought it was then it can be shown you, a different experience, but one in which your mind is ready for. I cannot say much more because I have not gone beyond this world yet , but I have seen what this world represents and it frightened me, enough for me to make a choice.
I am like the 1st year student studying the laws of physics, it's all new for me and so my expression is still very confused so it's better for now that I say no more. Instead I have some things to show you that have come to me in my imagination.
Cuneiformist, your points are accepted. I'm not sure what the alternative suggests yet, I'll just post some ideas for discussion, you as a skeptic can then help with questioning the logic.
Valiant Dancer, please apply whatever you wish to the pictures and ideas. Thanks for the tip on the defintion of 'Evolution'.
dv82matt, I would agree with :
reality is like a dream that changes depending on what you think it is. So rather than modifying what you think to fit with reality, you expect that reality will somehow change to match what you think.
I don't think it changes physically, but if your idea of what it represents changes then you will see a different picture.
quote:
Reality is real in a way that fantasies are not.
I Agree. For me reality is something forgotton, the journey's end. I believe that what I think now is so different from the ideas in reality that the 2 cannot meet. However, I also believe that the dream or the fantasy can become like a mirror of what reality is (an idea of oneness), when this happens reality can meet and past this is only reality.
Thanks for simplifying things. What's your answers to these questions ? |
'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/ |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 14:56:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
I cannot say much more because I have not gone beyond this world yet , but I have seen what this world represents and it frightened me, enough for me to make a choice.
Well, I think that's it in a nutshell. You saw that life leads only to death, are scared by that ulitmate demise, and so have invented some hackneyed denial response that let's you subsist by believing that "this is not all there is." That isn't some "deep epiphany," just basic human psychology.
Reality isn't a dream, but one can bury oneself in dreams if reality frightens them.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/28/2005 14:56:19 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 18:27:57 [Permalink]
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I had an extremely awesome (literally) experience this morning as I awoke from a dream. It was so fantastic that I can't explain it, but I was shown a reality different from that which I'd been exposed to so far in my life. And during this epiphany it was revealed to me that serendipitypublishing is living a lie, deluding him/herself into thinking things like "there is no path in this world that does not lead to death," and other vapid, non-sensical musings. sp is simply in denial of the way things really work, frustrated about it, and so is lashing out at every single epistemology except - obviously - sp's own unique one.
sp, of course, will perceive this as being made up, since it's a new idea. That's the only thing sp's gotten even partially correct so far. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2005 : 06:09:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
dv82matt, I would agree with :
reality is like a dream that changes depending on what you think it is. So rather than modifying what you think to fit with reality, you expect that reality will somehow change to match what you think.
So reality does change depending on what you think of it? ...but I see you have the following qualification.
quote:
I don't think it changes physically, but if your idea of what it represents changes then you will see a different picture.
Okay, so it doesn't change physically. In what way does it change?
quote:
quote:
Reality is real in a way that fantasies are not.
I Agree.
Alright good. I also agree.
quote:
For me reality is something forgotton,
Forgotten? Like we knew it once?
quote:
the journey's end.
and maybe the beginning too if we've forgotten it.
quote:
I believe that what I think now is so different from the ideas in reality that the 2 cannot meet.
Okay, so reality is basically unknowable.
quote:
However, I also believe that the dream or the fantasy can become like a mirror of what reality is (an idea of oneness),
So dreams or fantasies provide a way to access the forgotten reality?
quote:
when this happens reality can meet and past this is only reality.
Ultimate truth, right?
Okay, the problem I have with this train of thought is that it would seem to indicate that dreams and fantasies are more real, than reality itself. To me this is clearly absurd.
You are probably thinking in terms of some sort of meta-reality that is purpose driven and seems more meaningful to you than real reality.
quote:
Thanks for simplifying things. What's your answers to these questions ?
Thanks for asking. I agree with all of the following statements:
There is an objective reality that exists outside of the mind.
Reality is independent of any ideas we may have about it.
Ideas about reality should be based on reality, and not the other way around.
Much of reality is unknown, and some may be unknowable.
Incorrect ideas about reality, are simply incorrect ideas about reality, and not alternative truths.
What do you think? |
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend
60 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2005 : 08:55:43 [Permalink]
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Thanks dv82Matt for your views. I feel I cannot comment yet as I am in the early days of my learning and need to be more responsible for my opinions until I have sorted out the confusion in my mind. I was very interested in your post and it helped me to question my own beliefs as well as posts from other members.
I will continue to write my ideas down in my journal until I am sure of what it is I believe. |
'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/ |
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Duaa
New Member
Egypt
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 14:37:09 [Permalink]
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Hello guys..
I may have some answers concerning the evolution theory according to my Islamic beleif .. if anyone is interested to know u can add me to the msn messanger : silverbird__27@hotmail.com .. as I prefer online interaction
regards |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 08:39:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Duaa
Hello guys..
I may have some answers concerning the evolution theory according to my Islamic beleif .. if anyone is interested to know u can add me to the msn messanger : silverbird__27@hotmail.com .. as I prefer online interaction
regards
Hello Duaa, and welcome to Skeptic Friends Network.
Most members of SFN are atheists or agnostics. Feel free to start a new thread posing those questions and your answer to them. Most theists that write here are Christians, so it would be nice to have some input from members of other religions. I bet you will get many many responses. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 09:06:39 [Permalink]
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Agreein' with Coc. It would be most interesting to get an Islamic point of view on many matters aside from evolution. It is a faith that I don't know much about.
Welcome Duaa!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Duaa
New Member
Egypt
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 09:13:29 [Permalink]
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Hello again ..
though as I said I prefer interactive discussion but I will start with a thought .. try to think outside the box guys .. u sure know the advancing robotics technology .. advanced sensors .. and artifitial intellegence ..imagine mankind has invented a very very advanced robot .. imagine we made a city for these robots and programmed them with the ability to think .. analyse .. charge their own power .. and even manufacture tiny robots like them ! now these robots don't see us right ? imagine we monitor them and one day we saw them saying : '' nobody made me .. I was a result of absolute coincidence .. or I was once another machine that evolution led me to be an intellegent robot '' .... I will not comment on the story but next I will mention our islamic beleif about creation and this beleif is based on what is mentioned by God in our Quraan '' holy book ''
1st : God said that he created Adam .. the 1st man .. and he teached him everything .. what are the elements .. air .. water .. fire .. and how he can use them for his living and he created mother ''Hawaa'' .. and teahced her also everything so they can find their way to live on earth ... what happened after that that this knowledge known by Adam was lost generation after generation somehow .. then a reverse process happened that prophets came again and gave these knowledge to people and people took it .. developed it and still developing it till nowadays ..
2nd: God said that he created Adam like no other speice .. that he made him and mankind the most dignified and intellegent creatures and made him use his intellegence to adapt himself to live in whatever envirnoment he is put in ..
3rd: about the resemblence between monkeys and mankind ... and about them being intellegent .. then we beleive that the God who created mankind can sure create creatures less intellegent .. and that's the main difference here .. Intellegence is the key .. scientists say that to state any theory u must prove it infront of ur eyes and moreover to have a theory u must repeat it's procedure .. but evolution theory strongly contradicts these basics .. nobody saw the phase when monkeys developed into men ! evolution staters assume that this happened somewhere in the old past .. but there is no proof .. and the only one who knows what really happened is the one who made everything happen .. which is God .. |
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Duaa
New Member
Egypt
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 09:15:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Agreein' with Coc. It would be most interesting to get an Islamic point of view on many matters aside from evolution. It is a faith that I don't know much about.
Welcome Duaa!
You are most welcomed .. I prefer u ask a specific question about what u are interested to know
regards |
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