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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 01/27/2005 : 15:50:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Heck Clinton missed the boat with Pakistan and India when they detonated theirs and N Korea was his failure. He got snookered by Chairmain Chia-Head.
Yep... when rational argument looks like it's not gonna work, whip out the handy-dandy-all-purpose republican comeback. BLAME CLINTON!
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The world was and never will be safe.
Which is all the more reason for us, who can because we are the baddest motherfuckers on the block already, to USE RESTRAINT. All the more reason for us to excercise better judgement in deciding which governments to support. (you DO know that we helped Saddam into power in Iraq, yes? A scenario that has bitten us in the ass in MULTIPLE instances. Marcos anyone? The Taliban anyone? etc...)
The whole thing in Iran COULD have ended so much better after the Shaw's death....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 15:51:09 [Permalink]
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Dude,
You sounded almost jingoistic with the Kill em all rant.
If we are the power in the world, then what... are we the world's police force??? Does that mean we should enforce the treaties and resolutions that promise bitter consequences (hello Iraq)? With what threat do we do that? Should all the other nations obey the UN us cuz big bad US will godsmack you and your little dog too?
Personally, I think we shouldn't be the police. We should remain neutral and when asked to help or create peace (quiet) in one area of the world. No complaints from the requestor.
I also think that poor John Q Iraqi and GI Joe did not deserve the suffering from myopic rulers. Get Rid of Executive Order 12333. Negotiate with the sword of Damocles over their heads. Cuz diplomacy is nothing more than saying good doggie, nice doggie as you inch you way to the bat.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 16:09:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
If we are the power in the world, then what... are we the world's police force???
Apparently this is the position of the current president.
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Cuz diplomacy is nothing more than saying good doggie, nice doggie as you inch you way to the bat.
Nobody wants to be invaded. They will ALL negotiate. Violence should be the last resort, and don;t give me some line about all the "failed" UN resolutions, because in the case of Iraq it appears that the sanctions and resolutions were in fact effective at getting them to dispose of their WMD. To bad we found that out at the cost of 1500 dead US soldiers and atleast 20,000 dead Iraqis.
The problem with your diplomacy analogy (I really hate analogies) is that we have the bat in hand already. We never put it down. Our responsibility lies in convincing the dog that we can kick it's ass without ever having to use the bat to prove the point.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 16:41:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
If we are the power in the world, then what... are we the world's police force???
Apparently this is the position of the current president.
And yours.
"We are the power in this world, and we are misusing it in such an insane way right now that it pisses me off."
You implied it. What is the sane way of using the power and with what force will you back up the law or treaty?
And what is our power?
"Nobody will EVER use a nuke against the US. Why? Because if they do, they will recieve it back with interest. They, and their nation, would cease to exist. "
So tell me about war-mongering or mass murder...you seem to be advocating it. Not restraint. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 19:09:36 [Permalink]
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We did not create the Taliban. After the Soviets left Afghanistan, there was constant inter-tribal war. The Taliban promised peace and the people were tired of conflict. However we saw what their peace was.
We DID create the taliban. We gave those guys guns and training to fight the USSR. We helped them kill 100,000 Soviet soldiers.
Then, when the USSR came apart, we said, "Well boys, you are on your own now!". We set a highly trained, armed, and viscious group of religious fanatics free to do what they wanted. The Taliban was the result. WE are responsible for their existance.
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And yours.
"We are the power in this world, and we are misusing it in such an insane way right now that it pisses me off."
You implied it. What is the sane way of using the power and with what force will you back up the law or treaty?
And what is our power?
"Nobody will EVER use a nuke against the US. Why? Because if they do, they will recieve it back with interest. They, and their nation, would cease to exist. "
So tell me about war-mongering or mass murder...you seem to be advocating it. Not restraint.
If you are going to deliberately misinterpret what I am saying, then I'm not going to waste my time with this.
When I say that anyone who nukes us will be nuked back, I'm just stating fact. Can you see the US doing anything other than responding in kind?
Nobody who is in charge of a nation on this planet fails to be aware of this fact.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 20:51:39 [Permalink]
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Here is some info on the Taliban http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban.html We did not create them. We did give aid to the Mujahadeen, the holy warriors which was a very diverse group. The Taliban was created by Pakistan. Please do your research.
Your post included the phrase "returned with interest" and "their nation ceasing to exist." Sorry bub, I don't think I am misinterperting anything. You made a very classless comment worthy of a jingoist or a Tobey Keith song and ridicule.
Depending on the circumstances, we would restrain. We reacted slowly after 9/11 with good reason. Bin Laden gambled that we would lash out blindly. He lost. Iraq was another matter. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 21:04:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
My comment (Should have made it clear first, my fault) was this attitude GW is the anti-christ, Hilter mass murderer that is prevelant in this board. There are far worse leaders. BTW I voted libertarian.
You really don't get it do you?
It's not what Skeptic Friends think about GW Bush. It's what the rest of the world thinks. (we) They are angry with Bush for meddling with stuff that isn't his business. They hate him for not being able to do anything about it. And scared shitless he might turn on them.
The rest of the world doesn't give a shit about who Hitler was. He lived long ago. Today Bush is the greatest threat. Like Beskeptigal wrote: He's forcing fundies into a corner they can't back out from, and that makes them dangerous. If I was the leader of a nation currently being threatened by US invasion, I'd sure as hell do anything in my power to plant a nuke in DC. If that meant spending billions of dollars buying one from Kazakhstan, then so be it.
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The UN has no teeth.
It hasn't. And there are two important reasons for that.
1. Money: USA isn't paying UN as much as it should. I don't know the exact criteria for how much each country should pay, but a few years back America was more than 10 billion dollars behind, and it's only gotten worse.
2. Unity: Too much posturing and grand standing between nations in the security council. America is partly to blame for this.
3. Since USA and Israel don't give a fuck about following resolutions, then why the hell should anyone else?
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What the main issue is the Pre-Emption Policy. To clarify my view on the policy, It basically states that when we believe that there is a credible threat to our nation or national interest, we will strike first.
BUT IRAQ WASN'T A CREDIBLE THREAT to anyone but the wallets of Bush and his cronies.
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Pre-Emption does work.
Yes, if creating fear is what you want, then yes it does work.
It's working in Iraq, isn't it?
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The Gov't of Iran, the Mullah's have no love for us and incite the public to view the US as the "Great Satan."
And who's fault is that? If it hadn't been the imperialistic aspirations of the US in the Middle East, and the US unconditional support of Israel...
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Can we trust them? Can we trust them to say, We got the Bomb but we won't use it unless provoked.
Are you for real?
The illegal American invasion of Iraq shows to the whole world that the USA is threatening, and if they can't find a good reason for invading a country, they will make one up. It's the American Government that has proved itself to be untrustworthy. Does Iran feel provoked by USA? Hell yes, USA just invaded the neighboring country. For all the American rhetoric of liberation, it's just a poor excuse to set up a military base from which to launch an invasion into Iran. That's what the Mullahs in Iran are thinking.
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We all seem to have the myth that the world was safe before GW went after Afghanistan and Iraq.
It was safer
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Tell that to the victims of Darfur, Rwanda, Srebenicia, the FARC and Paramilitaries in Columbia, the Islamic fundie terrorist group in Algeria.
The world was and never will be safe.
No, but we can all help by being constructive. And bombing Middle Eastern countries back to the stone-age isn't the answer. After 9/11 USA should have stayed in Afghanistan to sort their mess out there first.
Had you stayed there and grabbed Bin Laden, and stayed enough to get a democracy up and running, including legal system and law-enforcement, then the world would have thought much differently about USA.
(edited for grammar) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 01/28/2005 08:21:02 |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 23:24:06 [Permalink]
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| Kudos Doc.....pretty much got it spot on. |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 00:49:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Your post included the phrase "returned with interest" and "their nation ceasing to exist." Sorry bub, I don't think I am misinterperting anything. You made a very classless comment worthy of a jingoist or a Tobey Keith song and ridicule.
blah blah blah.... did I say I was in favor of any such thing? No. Just stating a fact as I see it. Did I advocate any kind of nuclear retaliation? No. Get it fucking straight. And don't call me "bub", I find it offensive.
This is what I mean when I say this is a waste of time. You are deliberately misrepresenting what I'm saying. It's rather Limbaugh like.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 07:32:05 [Permalink]
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| Say what you must, Rubicon, but for the rest of the world, the United States is doing what every single powerful nation in the world has done: building itself an empire. It happened with Macedonia, it happened with Rome, it happened with France, it happened with England and it almost happened with Germany. America's the next. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 07:43:15 [Permalink]
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| And every empire builder used some more or less bogus argument to justify their acts of aggression. |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 08:55:37 [Permalink]
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Doc, I like your points on the UN but I disagree,
The Peacekeepers are in-effectual. The UN negotiated in Bosnia/Hercogovina. The ability to enforce its will has been eroded.
Unity - Hit the nail on the head. The only time it seems the UN is united is in condemning Israel which is odd since the UN created it. The UN conference on racism became just a we-hate-US and Israel club. Nothing was done about Rwanda or Darfur or the persecution of the Dalits in India.
Here's question for you, would you/Sweden be willing to send troops to say Rwanda, or Somali or the Ivory Coast or Iraq to enforce peace or resolutions to disarm? How would Sweden feel when the troops came home in body bags or the financial cost becomes too high?
Do the nations of the UN have the will to pay any price for enforcing the resolutions and upholding its ideals?
You probably see a pattern or a theme in my diatribe. The law is ineffectual unless it is backed up by force or consequences.
As far as Iran, we've been hearing "Death to America" for 20+ years now. We have seen the resolve of the mullahs to enforce their will in and out of Iran.(unconditional support for Hizbollah, Sadat's assasination, Salman Rushdie) Khatami was trying to reform the political process but the Mullahs in Supreme Council sabotaged every effort. Now the mullahs want a bomb. We don't trust them from their track record. They don't trust us.
I have no arguement with your views on Afghanistan. You're right. We did not finish the job and now another 80 billion of our tax dollars is going to Iraq and Afghanistan is getting the bum end of the deal.
The US had world support after 9/11 and it was squandered.
Siberia, Thanks! That was a breath of fresh air.
There are some who say why not have an empire, we are the one power in the world. Empire has its price. It means spending way too much money on the military and not on domestic issues.
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 09:11:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Here's question for you, would you/Sweden be willing to send troops to say Rwanda, or Somali or the Ivory Coast or Iraq to enforce peace or resolutions to disarm? How would Sweden feel when the troops came home in body bags or the financial cost becomes too high?
Ever heard about Kongo? Gaza? Bosnia? Kosovo?
Sweden has contributed to peace keeping forces before and will in the future.
Of course we won't send soldiers to Iraq.
It's your mess, you deal with it!
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
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