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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 01/28/2005 : 10:39:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Siberia, Thanks! That was a breath of fresh air.
There are some who say why not have an empire, we are the one power in the world. Empire has its price. It means spending way too much money on the military and not on domestic issues.
I know. Reason why most of them fall.
But that's what the world's thinking. Whether this opinion is right or not, I don't know, but I can assure you that waging war, first on Afghanistan, then on Iraq, then, possibly, on Iran is not helping to dissuade the rest of the world of this idea. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 10:41:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
We did not create the Taliban. After the Soviets left Afghanistan, there was constant inter-tribal war. The Taliban promised peace and the people were tired of conflict. However we saw what their peace was.
We DID create the taliban. We gave those guys guns and training to fight the USSR. We helped them kill 100,000 Soviet soldiers.
We didn't create the Taliban or Iraq's Hussein. We just armed them.
We were all for these assholes when they were our assholes. We supplied weapons to them and they gained legitamacy. And who armed them? Reagan. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 13:44:05 [Permalink]
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Hey Valiant,
Happy Birthday to you son. Hope his days are filled with peace. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 15:13:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Hey Valiant,
Happy Birthday to you son. Hope his days are filled with peace.
Thanks, Rubicon. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 16:15:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Doc, I like your points on the UN but I disagree,
The Peacekeepers are in-effectual. The UN negotiated in Bosnia/Hercogovina. The ability to enforce its will has been eroded.
Yes. They are ineffective in that regard. In most cases they haven't been mandated to return fire, unless they were really up shit creek. In Bosnia/Hercegovina and in many other places they should have been given the ability to operate will less restraint.
Another thing that troubles me about international forces. Coming from different countries they will also have different ethics and morals. In the former Jugoslavia there were many examples of UN soldiers using local prostitutes. I believe Sweden have standing orders against that kind of interaction with the local populace, but there have been some news about some Swedish soldiers doing it regardless. Their excuse? "Why can't we, then all other nations allow it?"
quote:
Unity - Hit the nail on the head. The only time it seems the UN is united is in condemning Israel which is odd since the UN created it.
I'm sure it seems that way because of bias in the US media.
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The UN conference on racism became just a we-hate-US and Israel club.
I blame the idiots running the US and Israeli goverments. They are very much responsible for the hate against them.
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Nothing was done about Rwanda or Darfur or the persecution of the Dalits in India.
I'm not sure. But it is bad that nothing substantial came of it.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 16:46:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Forgot you guys had Charles XII.
He was an imperilaist, and an accomplished military commander.
Though I cannot deny he made a big impact in shaping the nation of Sweden, he was eventually shot.
There are different theories, but the most plausible one is that one of his own soldiers got fed up with his constant warfare and put a bullet in his brain.
Your nation would obviously also have benefitted, if someone had done the same some 4 years ago...
After Charles XII's death, Queen Ulrika Eleonora signed a form of government that transfered much power to "riksdagen" (the equivalent of the House of Representatives). That was a major step toward democracy in Sweden. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 16:56:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Here's question for you, would you/Sweden be willing to send troops to say Rwanda, or Somali or the Ivory Coast or Iraq to enforce peace or resolutions to disarm? How would Sweden feel when the troops came home in body bags or the financial cost becomes too high?
Ever heard about Kongo? Gaza? Bosnia? Kosovo?
Sweden has contributed to peace keeping forces before and will in the future.
My father was stationed on Cyprus. A classmate of mine was in Gaza. There are two reasons I can't join international forces. I can't pass the physical because of a busted hip, and my technical skills aren't needed for the kind of duties they will have.
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Of course we won't send soldiers to Iraq.
It's your mess, you deal with it!
Indeed you made your bed, now you lie in it! |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 17:22:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
You probably see a pattern or a theme in my diatribe. The law is ineffectual unless it is backed up by force or consequences.
I agree. But let's face it: Your government lied to you. The resolutions against Iraq was working effectively, and they didn't have any offensive capabilities to speak of. No WMD.
quote:
The US had world support after 9/11 and it was squandered.
Perhaps not support, but at least silent consent.
When Bush said "You're either with us or against us" I thought 'what a fucking moron, I guess I'm against the US then...'
I didn't support him, but I accepted that America went for Afghanistan since we knew of the connections with Bin Laden.
It feels like I'm standing on the sideline watching two children arguing with each other. Now they are yelling to each other 'my father is stronger than your father' (substitute 'father' with 'God').
Rubicon, your voicing about national security and that UN is powerless and other rationalisations for the invasion of Iraq just add to the voice of one of the children.
quote:
Siberia, Thanks! That was a breath of fresh air.
There are some who say why not have an empire, we are the one power in the world. Empire has its price. It means spending way too much money on the military and not on domestic issues.
Why not try to build an empire based on benefits of mutual cooperation instead of Threats of Violence? Like the European Union?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2005 : 01:17:52 [Permalink]
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Most things I'd say have been said. I'll just add a couple comments.
GWB may not be the antichrist but he is the most frightening president I've ever seen. The attack on Iraq was planned before 9/11(documented by Richard Clark and supported by others, never really refuted by Bush) and carried out as soon as he had a chance.
There was no purpose in invading Iraq related to terrorism. Only in opening up resources for the West to access.
There are many other things about the Bush admin that make them more than just troublesome. They have done more to suppress dissent and manipulate information than any administration I've seen including Nixon's. (Protests are skillfully snuffed out and they have even managed to have the press ignore 1/2 million protesters in NY among other feats.) Not to mention the possibility of rigged elections.
The Iraq war has not gone according to Bush's assessments. It has gone according to others who predicted correctly the Iraqis were not going to welcome us with open arms. Now the same people are predicting the same things, Bush thinks going into Iran will result in successful overthrow of the mullahs and the folks who know better are saying it's foolish. But Bush seems ready to continue down the same path. All the while trying to distract everyone with the social security issue.
And, finally, the nuclear strategy of deterrence works when you are threatened by a country that has territory to defend. Who should we nuke if a terrorist group gets a nuke to the US in a container ship? Do they seem to care? Maybe we should announce that if we are hit with a nuke bomb we'll blow up Mecca? How is a deterrence policy of mutual assured destruction going to help us with today's particular situation? |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 01/29/2005 01:18:19 |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2005 : 21:39:51 [Permalink]
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Dr.
People would disagree as to the term working. Mind you there was an uproar on the deaths of children in Iraq due to the UN santions. The inpsectors came and were kicked out again and again. Saddam was playing brinksmanship. Of course the old arguement is, if he had nothing to hide why hamper the inspectors.
True the US gov't may have lied. I doubt if any gov't is upfront with its people. Personally, i thought Bush was sabre rattling. When the final demand that Saddam leave was issued, I thought of Sarajevo 1911. The US like the Austro-Hungarian empire wanted to invade and be done with it.
As far as biased media, here the major news don't favor Israel or Bush. If you trust your media, I suggest you read or watch "Manufacturing Consent" by Noam Chomsky. It opened my eyes. BTW, do you know what became of Pol Pot? and how did you find out?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2005 : 05:37:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Saddam was playing brinksmanship. Of course the old arguement is, if he had nothing to hide why hamper the inspectors.
He thought that they were violating his nation's sovereignty. I can certainly understand his dilemma. The UN sanctions effectively stripped away most of his military power, enough to leave him bare naked to any kind of invasion by anyone of it's neighbours.
Given his experience of the UN, he sure as hell thought he couldn't rely on the UN coming to the rescue if Syria or Iran made advances on Iraq's territory. Even the Kurds had the opportunity to break free to create an independent Kurdish state in the north. Personally I would have welcomed that since there are many Kurdish exiles scattered all over the world. But had they done that, Turkey might have entered the fray too, creating a free-for-all.
I personally believe that Saddam tried to hinder the inspectors in order to stop them from reporting how defenceless Iraq really was. To avoid the shame of being stripped naked, and avoid the possibility of loosing territory.
quote:
BTW, do you know what became of Pol Pot? and how did you find out?
I'm not sure... Wasn't he also murdered by one of his own?
I was too young to pay attention to foreign affairs during that time so Pol Pot was not such a high priority. I was doing my military service in -90 when Saddam invaded Kuwait. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2005 : 06:24:45 [Permalink]
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Pol Pot quote:
The death of Pol Pot
By Peter Symonds and Martin McLaughlin
18 April 1998
The death of former Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot on April 15 in the Thai-Cambodian border area brings to an end one of the most chilling and bloody chapters of the twentieth century. During Pol Pot's three and a half years of rule over Cambodia, from 1975 to 1978, the Khmer Rouge killed as many as two million people through mass executions, starvation and slave labor.
The genocide in Cambodia was the outcome of a complex historical development in which the pernicious ideological influence of Stalinism came together with the military bloodbath carried out by American imperialism against the people of Indochina. Little of this history can be gleaned from the commentaries in the corporate-controlled media, which used the occasion to rehash old anticommunist myths and whitewash the US role in the Cambodian tragedy.
Another scumbag who checked out far too late.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2005 : 23:09:55 [Permalink]
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Sidenotes: I read this book, Survival in the Killing Fields, by Haing Ngor, among others about the Cambodian experience under Pol Pot. Excellent book. Dr Ngor played the main part in the movie, "The Killing Fields" but the book is about his own experience. You can't imagine what it was like without reading some of the accounts people have written. As if things could be any sadder, the very day after I finished the book, Dr Ngor was murdered in a stupid punk robbery in LA.
Pol Pot was like Pinochet, today. When he was very old, there was finally a move to try him for his incredible tyranny. I believe Pot died a natural death before he was tried. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2005 : 23:26:37 [Permalink]
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But back to the issue of this thread...Rub, you can go on and on about Saddam. The way I see it, and not to offend you but, you are spouting the party line. As a Libertarian, don't you think government manipulation of ideas is something to be wary of?
Clear your mind of background clutter for just one minute.
The issue was terrorism, Osama Bin Ladin and his group attacked the US. We invaded Afghanistan where Al Qaeda was openly based. That made sense.
Next thing you know we are invading Iraq and calling it the war on terror. There was no connection to the attack on the US. There was no immediate threat that warranted invading the country.
Despite no connection and no threat, Bush and his group has managed to plant the idea firmly in half the American psyche that the Iraq invasion is part of the war on terror.
If you want to quell the threat of terror, settle the Israeli/Palestinian thorn in our side. If the US was serious we could do that since we support the Israeli government with billions in subsidies.
If you want to quell the terrorist threat, get those loose nukes in Russia's broken up territories secured, secure our airlines, secure the cargo ships entering our ports, and secure the borders where millions enter under the fence every single year.
Push our allies in the Middle East to close the Madrassas, to improve people's lives by investing in the economy where it creates jobs rather than government wealth.
The list of things that would have done more to make us safer is pages and pages long before you get to 'invading Iraq' even if there were no better alternatives to the invasion which I think there were. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 05:22:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Posted by Rubicon95In comparison with what Iran has, I choose Bush.
If I understand the gist of Rubicon's argument, he is saying that he embraces the Administration's policy of pre-emption as the best means to deal with Iran. The problem with this idea is that it very well may turn out to be true. By abandoning rational dialogue, and international statesmanship we paint ourselves into that corner.
Even though Rubicon has inferred the Clinton Administration has dropped the nuclear ball in India, Pakistan and North Korea, he's failed to show how pre-emption could have made these scenarios better, or how they relate to Iran. In retrospect, Clinton used the tools of dialogue to keep these countries under political and economic pressure. He kept them at the negotiating table, and interested in their own seat as world citizens. In these specific cases, I fail to see any evidence that another policy would have been a better choice.
On the other hand, the Bush policy has further isolated North Korea, and has done little to diffuse the tensions in Kashmir. Furthermore, the specific case of Iran is a perfect example of the deficiencies of the Bush policy in comparison to the Clinton policy.
Despite the fact that the Reagan Administration was able to cut a few illegal deals with the newly formed Islamic Republic of Iran, there was no general warming of relations between the two nations after the Iranian Revolution. Furthermore, Iran did not hesitate to pursue nuclear weapons and stockpile one of the world's largest caches of chemical weapons.
The Clinton Administration began by aiming their policy at Russia and China to prevent the importation of dual-use technologies into Iran. Iran's nuclear technology hadn't yet reached a level requiring surgical military strikes, and direct dialogue with the Iranian Leadership Council or the Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamanei was still out of the question.
In 1997, a very young Iranian population that had not grown up under the oppressive thumb of Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlevi, and fed up by economic turmoil and religious repression elected the moderate Mohammed Khatami as president. Despite the fact that the president still had to answer to the Leadership Council, he was allowed to reach out to the world, including the US. A new found sense of optimism was beginning to grow both inside and outside the Iranian borders.
Although Iran continued to pursue the Bushehr nuclear reactor complex, the talk coming from it's leadership was becoming more conciliatory and open.
Then, in 2002, GW made his famous “Axis of Evil” speech in a silly assed attempt to pretend he was the reincarnation of the “Great Communicator.” Add that to our “pre-emptive invasion” of Iraq and we had all the ingredients for disaster. We once more united all Iranians in a mutual hatred of the US, and pushed both Iran and North Korea into a corner.
Now, if someone truly believes that we were less safe when we had even a minor reasonable dialogue with these two unstable leaderships, they've got to have a few screws loose. A quick look at the difference in attitude of Iran in 1999 and 2005 is clear.
What we have to understand is that given the opportunity, every nation on this planet that may feel threatened by another will pursue nuclear weapons. Plus, the technology and materials are becoming more available |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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| Edited by - Tim on 01/31/2005 05:28:10 |
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