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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
 Posted - 01/31/2005 : 09:02:23 [Permalink]
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Actually Tim, I was referencing Bush is evil rant I have seen. I have issues with Bush but he is not the mass murderer that people make him out to be. I'd choose to live under Bush than Iran's Khameni. If Khatami had more power, then I'd choose Iran.
Pre-Emption as a policy can be useful tool if it is that big stick or elephant in the negotiating room. It is dangerous but so is brinksmanship and appeasement.
Me I prefer assassination as a policy. I hope our gov't would repeal the executive order on that. Dropping a bunker buster on some poor joe cuz their leader was myopic or prideful doesn't sound just. Course that puts our leadership in the crosshairs as well. To sound cold, that is the price. (and why I should never be in Gov't)
I like your points on statemanship. What you described in the 2nd to last paragraph sounds like a very good policy.
Beskepitigal,
Blogs can really mess your mind. Thanks for the advice. My wife was worried about me for a while.
As a Libertarian and as a citizen, yes I am really concerned when the gov't can twist ideas and intellegence. Thank you Noam Chomsky. However, if there is a clear and present danger to the US, I expect the gov't to act decisively to protect the population, even if that means pre-emptive strikes.
What are the root causes of terrorism? Let me be more specific, islamic terrorism directed at the US. (Since we are not going after the IRA or the FARC, or the mujahadeen kalq or ETA)
Failed societies.
I firmly believe that the gov'ts of the Mideast are to blame. They are trying to divert the attention of their population from the gov't failures by scapegoating the US and Israel. (sound familiar?) I do not believe they want reform or to share power. Like anyone who holds power they want to keep it and use whatever means to retain it, including cultivating the atmosphere for terror groups. That is one way of getting rid of pesky smart kids who might foment revolution.
As far as aid,
Clinton did provide economic aid for the PA. That money went to building an airport. Iraq gave aid to bombers. Iran gives aid Hezbollah who's aim is to destroy Israel. Originally Hezbollah was waging a war to end Israel's occupation of southern Lebanon. Ehud Barak withdrew the troops and Hezbollah changed its reason for existence. The Mullahs in Iran want to see Israel gone more than they want help the Palestinians live. (personal opinion, after the Mullahs refused help from Israel when the Bam earthquake occurred.)
The changes that need to be done to stop terrorism are changes to society. Now if you think that Christian fundies war on evolution was bad, wait until you see a Muslim fundie war on gay rights and women's rights.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 11:07:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
When Bush said "You're either with us or against us" I thought 'what a fucking moron, I guess I'm against the US then...
As is anyone who is placed into that kind of corner. The reaction in the US to that moronic statement was prettymuch split. The redneck nascar morons cheered, the rest of us cringed.
Personally, I felt sick. Then I was pissed off that a US president could be so fucking stupid.
Sadly, the redneck retard half of this country is the half that got out and voted in 2004.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 13:34:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Dr.
People would disagree as to the term working. Mind you there was an uproar on the deaths of children in Iraq due to the UN santions. The inpsectors came and were kicked out again and again. Saddam was playing brinksmanship. Of course the old arguement is, if he had nothing to hide why hamper the inspectors.
Nations have a vested interest in keeping military stuff secret. It is not unnatural for this to have happened. Hussein, however, had started to comply unconditionally with inspectors before the invasion. In addition, UNSCOM said that they did not believe that any WMD's existed in Iraq and the discrepancy was due to paperwork errors. (a common occurrence in any nation) They went public with this prior to invasion.
quote:
True the US gov't may have lied. I doubt if any gov't is upfront with its people. Personally, i thought Bush was sabre rattling. When the final demand that Saddam leave was issued, I thought of Sarajevo 1911. The US like the Austro-Hungarian empire wanted to invade and be done with it.
As far as biased media, here the major news don't favor Israel or Bush. If you trust your media, I suggest you read or watch "Manufacturing Consent" by Noam Chomsky. It opened my eyes. BTW, do you know what became of Pol Pot? and how did you find out?
I don't trust the media implicitly. I check the sources that they cite where possible. Noam Chomsky is not a reputable source for history and what it teaches. He is primarily a linguist. His ideas of history are suspect. This is my opinion on the matter gleaned from reading Chomsky's works and noting errors. (Gorgo will undoubedly disagree with me, but he puts more faith in Chomsky than I do.)
Pol Pot, died reportedly of a heart attack while fleeing Cambodian government forces in the company of Ta Mok.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9804/16/pol.pot.on.update/
He's one of the people who escape justice for their crimes such as Idi Amin did. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 13:37:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
When Bush said "You're either with us or against us" I thought 'what a fucking moron, I guess I'm against the US then...
As is anyone who is placed into that kind of corner. The reaction in the US to that moronic statement was prettymuch split. The redneck nascar morons cheered, the rest of us cringed.
Personally, I felt sick. Then I was pissed off that a US president could be so fucking stupid.
Sadly, the redneck retard half of this country is the half that got out and voted in 2004.
Hey! Hey! Hey!
You leave NASCAR out of this. This had nothing to do with NASCAR. It's a changing sport that has quite a few straight party ticket voters for Republicans.
Go Mark Martin! (#6)
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 14:20:35 [Permalink]
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I'm sorry, Dr. I just can't agree on Iraq's compliance. I will agree that the premise of Hussein being a clear and present danger might have been spiced up.
Chomsky's views on the control of media I find enlightening and agree with. I brought up Pol Pot to demonstrate. This mass murderer was captured in 1999 and was only blip on the media horizon. Like wise with Idi. The major networks here are more interested in bread and circuses than real news. (Is Jacko innocent? Scott Peterson, mindless drivel!) However no mention of the execution of Margie Hassan. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 14:41:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
I'm sorry, Dr. I just can't agree on Iraq's compliance. I will agree that the premise of Hussein being a clear and present danger might have been spiced up.
I'm not Dr. Mabuse. I note UNMOVIC's (UNSCOM's successor) statements that Iraq was fully cooperating with inspectors pre-invasion.
Took me a while but I found it.
UNMOVIC's quarterly report on inspections.
http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/new/documents/quarterly_reports/s-2003-232.pdf
Page 3 clearly states that
"12. Since the arrival of the first inspectors in Iraq on 27 November 2002, UNMOVIC has conducted more than 550 inspections covering approximately 350 sites. Of these 44 sites were new sites. All inspections were performed without notice, and access was in virtually all cases provided promptly. In no case have the inspectors seen convincing evidence that the Iraqi side knew in advance of their impending arrival."
Submitted 28 Februrary, 2003.
This one submitted 30 May, 2003 details the findings they had been complaining to the press about.
http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/new/documents/quarterly_reports/s-2003-580.pdf
quote:
Chomsky's views on the control of media I find enlightening and agree with. I brought up Pol Pot to demonstrate. This mass murderer was captured in 1999 and was only blip on the media horizon. Like wise with Idi. The major networks here are more interested in bread and circuses than real news. (Is Jacko innocent? Scott Peterson, mindless drivel!) However no mention of the execution of Margie Hassan.
Pol Pot died in 1998. Amin fled his country and never stood trial. Government control of the media in Cambodia made the 1997 arrest of Pol Pot a non event. Idi Amin's 1979 flight from Uganda was highly publicized. He fled to Lybia and then Saudi Arabia where he lived quite comfortably until his death in 2003. His death not being such a splash can be explained by the rather big dust up in Iraq going on at the time.
And Margaret Hassan's execution took up four days in the major networks. CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC all reported it and kept rehashing it as the video tape surfaced, her body was found, and the outpouring of grief and anger over her murder came out. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 01/31/2005 14:52:03 |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 15:13:35 [Permalink]
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You've convinced me on Iraq. The UN stuff did it. Can't find any credible source to disprove it. Rather than belabour a point or grind it into flinging useless articles. I concede.
I'll leave the media stuff for another thread. |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 15:14:54 [Permalink]
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You've convinced me on Iraq. The UN stuff did it. Can't find any credible source to disprove it. Rather than belabour a point or grind it into flinging useless articles. I concede.
I'll leave the media stuff for another thread. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 01:29:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I note UNMOVIC's (UNSCOM's successor) statements that Iraq was fully cooperating with inspectors pre-invasion.
Was this before or after the US was building up its forces in the Gulf? |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 05:00:18 [Permalink]
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As I said, we were attacked by OBL and al Qaeda, not Iraq and Saddam. I think we have agreement there though I'm not sure what Starman's last question implies if anything.
So the next question is how do you best stop terrorism at its roots and did we need to invade Iraq and/or will having invaded lead to a decrease in terrorism?
If Iraq doesn't disintegrate into civil war, and some form of democracy evolves, there may be a benefit. It's hard to tell right now if we are getting more spin, downplaying the absence of Sunnis in the process while overplaying the people's will to form a stable society.
Was there a better way to go about this? And if Iraq does not emerge as a stable country is there any way to fix the mess?
Yes to both. But the first thing people need to recognize is terrorism didn't grow over night and it can't be fixed overnight either.
The billions we spent and are spending could so have been better used securing our country and improving the lives of those people who resent us for having interfered in their countries for decades supporting bad governments all the while. It's too late at night to write this essay on how and why we should do this, and with the current admin. it ain't gonna happen anyway.
So now, I only hope Bush will quit his rhetoric that we will stay until the job is done which he thinks he needs to say because we didn't stay before, and I hope Bush will start making it clear we need to leave sooner rather than later. What my fear is, since Bush wanted to go into Iraq for the oil market, he really doesn't want to let go of that control and we are going to be no better off, Iraq will have a propped up government and nothing will change. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 05:34:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
As I said, we were attacked by OBL and al Qaeda, not Iraq and Saddam. I think we have agreement there though I'm not sure what Starman's last question implies if anything.
Yes I also agree with this.
My question is whether the Iraqi compliance with the inspectors was because of the (expensive) US military presence during the preparations for the invasion.
If that was the case the "the inspections was working" argument is quite weak. (Does not mean that the invasion was right, though") |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 08:17:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I note UNMOVIC's (UNSCOM's successor) statements that Iraq was fully cooperating with inspectors pre-invasion.
Was this before or after the US was building up its forces in the Gulf?
It started before and continued through the build up. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 17:47:29 [Permalink]
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If I recall correctly, Hans Blix complaind about not being able to access some sites as freely as he had wanted, but maintaind through out the inspections that they never saw anything indicating WMD.
When things started to heat up after 9/11 Blix was rather well covered in Swedish media since he's from Sweden, having a "prestigeous" appointment. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 18:07:15 [Permalink]
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I thought Blix was a German? heh, shows what I know.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2005 : 08:22:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
If I recall correctly, Hans Blix complaind about not being able to access some sites as freely as he had wanted, but maintaind through out the inspections that they never saw anything indicating WMD.
When things started to heat up after 9/11 Blix was rather well covered in Swedish media since he's from Sweden, having a "prestigeous" appointment.
In 2001, that was true. He gained unconditional access to sites in late 2002. In the weeks before the war, he was on the TV saying that they had full access to whatever site they wanted without prior notification. He was bemoaning a lack of cooperation from Iraqi scientists and poor record keeping. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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