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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
 Posted - 11/06/2001 : 15:56:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
I agree that it's all silly Donnie but there is a chance that someone who has not made up there mind will see how hollow the argument against evolution is. Perhaps it is ironic that these defenders of creation may be making up minds in favor of evolution because the contrary view is so intellectually impoverished.
I fervently hope you're right. But (being of a somewhat pessimistic bent) I rather think not... 
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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fleshmortification
New Member
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2001 : 17:26:11 [Permalink]
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Friends, countrymen, evolutionists,
I'm finding that this is as, you probably feel too, a bit pointless. DO I feel defeated? No. I never set out to 'convert' any of you. And of course I am pretty firm in what I believe. I see that science and its "findings" are your god. And it's blinded your minds. It's obvious who my God is. Like everything else, science changes, as do the opinions of man. One thing that stands forever is the Word of God. It will long after you are gone, my friend, and long after the teachings of evilution are but another thought system. I'm sure Marx, Hitler, Lenin, ad nauseum. thought they're system was right and would never be brought down either. Yes, scoff, snicker, rant and rave. How can I deny my Lord and Savior for some ever-changing tide of thought? It will change soon enough. All the "indisputable facts" will change in time and the next big fad will be preached. Can you deny this? Probably. Things will get worse before they get better, as you can see in our "evolving" world. Evolving into what ?
I never, ever believed in evolution, even when I was a godless, literally Satan worshipping drug addict. I hated God and did everything I could to show my hatred for Him. Horrible things you could never imagine. I was a violent, hateful man. Yet now I couldn't hurt a fly. You could never convince me that the spiritual connection I feel with God is just a chemical reaction in my brain. Ha! I am not brainwashed by your definition. But my mind has been renewed. I shouldn't even have any brain cells left. I never even heard of "creationism" until a year ago. Yet, I've always thought Darwin was a buffoon and a man lost at sea. It just makes sense that we did not come from bacteria millions or billions of years, or whatever the common census is. I guess the irony of it is, in the end, we'll see who's right. And as Pacal's Wager states, if I'm wrong, I have nothing to lose and if you're wrong...well you have everything to lose.
I once met a man, an evolutionist in fact, who said, "It's a fool's errand to argue with a true believer." Can we agree on that at least?
The one thing I've noticed that marks every evolution believing person I know (and believe me, there's alot) is their cynicism and contempt for life. Pretty bleak outlook on life actually. Search deep down inside and ask yourself where your hope lies. Live, procreate, die? What's life worth living for? I admit it, I am a bit of a smart-ass, but I don't hate any of you. Feel sorry for, yes, but not hate. Call it a crutch or whatever, I remember spitting on Christians on the street corner and beating them mercilessly.
You might think I'm completely off my rocker and the mere thought of it may want to make you to kill me, but I've prayed for everyone of you the last few nights, especially you, Slater.
There's a verse in the Bible that says, 'Do not throw your pearls to swine.' That what I feel I'm doing. Not that you're swine, but…you get the point. I'm sure under normal circumstances, we'd get along just fine. I admit, I laughed at some of your replies, because I see your fairly intelligent people. But you can't argue people into the Kingdom of Heaven.
So you win, you're science wins. To you. I disagree with it all, but I'm not going to waste any more time doing this. Obviously, you think creationism is bad science, as if God didn't know what He was doing when He wrote His Word. You know if spend hours reading books by evolutionists and listening to them speak on their beliefs and findings, yet I wonder how many of you have even stepped foot into a bible study. I wasn't afraid. Why are you? As I asked Tommy Huxley today, why do creation-bashers claim such authority on the bible that they ridicule and vehemently mock it, yet they have no degrees in theology? But when a creationist claims any scientific knowledge, they are taunted because they have not studied science at an acceptable institution of higher learning? You've heard it all, I know. We're all fools to you. And that's OK, I can live with it. In fact, I'll die for it. I'd die for my beliefs, would you?
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he wasn't real |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2001 : 17:46:01 [Permalink]
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Theology is mocked only when someone tried to use it is a tool in the scientific domain. A domain where it has no jurisdiction. Evolution makes no claim in any religious sense. It is only a problem to a vey small number of people that seem to feel that their beliefs are threatened by it. It's funny how so many religious people see nothing in it that threatens their belief. If one actually learns about evolution and thinks about it long and hard one might see that evolution in no way addresses the issue of whether there is a God and whether that God created anything. Evolution merely tries to explain what has happened to life forms and why they changed over time, perhaps after creation.
We need no degrees in theology in the same way that we need no degrees in evolutionary sciences. The Bible is right there for anyone to read just as books on evolution are. As for Tommy...if you've read anything by him in our Fan Mail section you will see that Tommy is quite knowledgeable in the area of theology and evolutionary science. He did not become that way by reading a few newsletters panning the Bible and evolution and that's why he can make the educated arguments he does. Whether you agree with his conclusions or not it would be quite astonishing for anyone to claim that he hasn't done his homework.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2001 : 18:26:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
I never, ever believed in evolution, even when I was a godless, literally Satan worshipping drug addict. I hated God and did everything I could to show my hatred for Him. Horrible things you could never imagine. I was a violent, hateful man. Yet now I couldn't hurt a fly.
What it sounds like is that someone caught you at a low point in your life, and took advantage. They probably told you how worthless you were, and how you'd never be able to help yourself, and that you need God to ever be happy. I'm glad you turned your life around. I'm just sorry that it was based on a lie. You traded one addiction for another.
quote:
You could never convince me that the spiritual connection I feel with God is just a chemical reaction in my brain.
What if we hooked you up to a machine, and flipped a switch, and you "felt God". Then we flipped off the switch, and the feeling went away. Then we flipped it on, and the feeling came back. We can basically do that, you know.
quote:
You know if spend hours reading books by evolutionists and listening to them speak on their beliefs and findings, yet I wonder how many of you have even stepped foot into a bible study.
Many of us were raised very religious. I myself was a total believer (Southern Baptist) until my early twenties. Sundays and Wednesdays, with youth group trips here and there.
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 11/06/2001 18:29:26 |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2001 : 19:24:45 [Permalink]
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This refers back to earlier statements in this thread about the gaps between the ears of the Creationists (hereinafter Cretins). I believe that the Cretins have evolved from ordinary humans (who have large gaps between their ears) into subhumans having no gaps between their ears. If there were a real gap between their ears, the Cretins would have thought their way out of their silliness and would now understand what Evolution is all about.
So, Cretins have evolved into creatures, resembling human beings, but without a gap between their ears. It is useless to confront them with their ignorance, because the term *ignorance* is completely incomprehensible to Cretins. Sad. Sad.
ljbrs   
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2001 : 19:32:57 [Permalink]
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As an agnostic, I neither hate nor rever the concept of a Supreme Being. And as I live in NC I have a fair number of double-dipped, deep-water Baptist neighbors. Most, I get along with well, but there's a couple that loath me for no better reason than my lack of belief. People is people where ever you go, I guess.
But I digress from the subject. Apologies.
Being a sort of semi-pro herpetologist, who gives educational presentations in the schools, I read and study constantly. I have also read the Bible, back when I was much younger. I can only go with what makes sense and the Theory of Evolution is the best explanation for the physical evidence THUS FAR. Gimmie a better one, and I'll drop the Theory like a hot rock and never look back at the stupid thing. As will the entire, scientific community.
Ya see, being skeptics, we are not locked into a ridgid dogma. And I cannot get up in front of a class holding a venomous serpent and claim anything but what's in the literature and my experience. Christian faith and the Bible won't help me at all.
I really fail to understand the fury that so many fundamentalists employe to attack a completly harmless set of peer-reviewed, proven facts. Especally when their own theories come from a single document written in a time when people firmly believed that the world was flat and who's top scientist gazed at entrails to tell the future (this last got slapped down right smartly - Thou shalt not allow a witch to live - but similar still goes on today).
In short, neither I nor anyone here believes in the Theory of Evolution. We simply accept it as the best explanation of the history of the organic world of which we are a part.
Regards,
f
The more I learn about people, the better I like rattlesnakes.
Edited by - filthy on 11/06/2001 19:35:03 |
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2001 : 21:16:44 [Permalink]
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I never set out to 'convert' any of you.
So just what did you set out to do?
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I see that science and its "findings" are your god.
Gods are supposed to be infallible. No one with a real understanding of science would make such a claim for science.
quote:
I'm sure Marx, Hitler, Lenin, ad nauseum. thought they're system was right and would never be brought down either.
That's because Communism was essentially a religion. It had the typical religious intolerance of other religions. Believers were completely certain that they alone possessed the truth. It promised a (worker's) paradise. It even preserved the body of Lenin as it's incorruptible saint.
It is probably worth noting that Joseph Stalin also disliked the idea of Darwinian evolution because he felt it conflicted with his "religion". He preferred a version of Lamarkian Evolution known as Lyshenkoism. He managed to set back Russian biological science half a century.
quote:
yet I wonder how many of you have even stepped foot into a bible study.I wasn't afraid. Why are you?
I was raised as a Presbyterian. I went to Church regularly, attended bible school, and read the bible from cover to cover. If I rejected my religious upbringing, it wasn't out of ignorance. I can not help but wonder why you are so afraid of reality that you choose to live your life hiding behind superstition (Satanism/Christianity).
quote:
I'd die for my beliefs, would you?
I think it was Bertrand Russel who said "Many people would rather die than think...and often do."
Edited by - espritch on 11/06/2001 21:20:14
Edited by - espritch on 11/06/2001 21:22:40 |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 02:08:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
The one thing I've noticed that marks every evolution believing person I know (and believe me, there's alot) is their cynicism and contempt for life.
Complete, absolute, utter bullshit. I am a keen amateur naturalist and semi-professional nature photographer. I love life, in all its varied and wondrous forms. I have noticed that many fundamentalists, in all religions, are just as you describe. They believe that the biblical passage about man having dominion over the animals means that they can do whatever they wish to wildife and the natural world, secure in their perverse knowledge that god say it's o.k.
The only life you will ever enjoy are the chanting morons surrounding you in your church. You will never know the beauty of nature, because you cannot. Your god won't allow it.
Free speech; excercise it or SHUT UP! |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 03:13:16 [Permalink]
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 T Zap: I think I already mentioned that the dosage(i.e. "J curve")of radiation 4 to 8 billion years ago should have been quite lethal
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ZaphodBeeblebrox
Skeptic Friend
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 03:35:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
T Zap: I think I already mentioned that the dosage(i.e. "J curve")of radiation 4 to 8 billion years ago should have been quite lethal
Where did you mention that
Lethal to what, exactly, all Life, or just you, in Particular
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 04:59:46 [Permalink]
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Oh me, oh my.
Argument by testimony. I note, Flesh, that after asserting vehemently that you could argue the science and beat us easily, that you withdraw before trying. (Darwin, at least, is still trying.)
So now, I suppose, we're supposed to believe because you CAN'T demonstrate the science is wrong and because you happen to believe strongly.
Don't feel sorry for me, Flesh. It wasn't until I admitted openly my atheism that I felt the same relief and strength that you claim you have from god.
And frankly, I think you're outright lying about knowing the poor cynical and sad 'evolutionists'. I haven't found a sad atheist yet. In fact, the happiest, most well grounded, most generous, kindest, most emotionally secure, most willing to be the butt of a joke, most tolerant people I know are atheists. All the believers are defensive, insecure about some things, ignorant regarding most science, and most likely to attack those with differing belief systems.
You really should learn more about your debate opponents, too. I'd wager a year's salary that not only Slater and Terg (for whom it's obvious) but also Tokyo, I, and a few others know a damned sight more about the bible than you do and have actually read the whole disgusting thing.
Here's a final point to really tick you off, though, Flesh. Others have made similar points. If the god of your bible came down from heaven today and proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it exists, I'd spit in its eye. Any being that acts the way this pissy, intolerant, vengeful, cruel, arbitrary, pile of misapplied morality acts doesn't deserve to be worshipped.
And I don't worship Satan either. Which I believe is your other lie. You never literally worshipped Satan; you're just trying to dramatize your own conversion.
My kids still love me. |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 08:38:51 [Permalink]
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 Zap check p. 5.And I'm not that special that the radiation would kill me only
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 08:46:18 [Permalink]
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4 to 8 billion years ago there was no life to be harmed by radiation.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 11:25:49 [Permalink]
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D'Alogos; the first life on Earth developed in the sea, The lethal radiation that you are so concerned about was partly filtered by sea water. Without the energy from this radiation life could not then, as now exist.
There was no life on the land solely because of this radiation.
The radiation is also one of the prime causes behind gene mutation (the random chance creationists rail over). Eventually some species evolved to the stage of algae and started to give off as a by-product (a nice way to say "shit") a horrible toxic gas. This highly reactive, lethal gas killed almost all life on Earth in the first, and most wide spread, extinction catastrophes. This gas is so reactive that it can destroy iron.
It's called oxygen.
The only life that was left on Earth were a few species that could tolerate oxygen. The descendents of this life now have evolved to the point where they can't live without this "toxin."
Once oxygen was in the atmosphere the extra electrons from lightening strikes would convert it to Ozone, which "floats" to the top of the atmosphere. And as luck would have it the Ozone blocks the Sun's radiation almost as effectively as sea water so life that found itself washed up by the tide no longer was fried.
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Flesh:
I never set out to 'convert' any of you. And of course I am pretty firm in what I believe. I see that science and its "findings" are your god. And it's blinded your minds.
So you show up here to tell us all how wrong evolution is, without wanting any of us to change our minds? You got your wish.
Like everything else, science changes, as do the opinions of man. One thing that stands forever is the Word of God.
Yet even though you were asked, several times, point blank, to prove that there was a god you didn't (couldn't?) do so.
How can I deny my Lord and Savior for some ever-changing tide of thought?
Actually the question was WHY must you deny your lord and savior because of a simple biology theory? All of the major denominations accept it. I even pointed out where in Genesis you can find evolution.
It is only you who oppose science. God has no problem with it at all.
It will change soon enough. All the "indisputable facts" will change in time and the next big fad will be preached. Can you deny this? Probably.
Are you saying that you think that people are incapable of learning? That if with more study and better instruments they find out new things that they should ignore them?
I never, ever believed in evolution, even when I was a godless, literally Satan worshipping drug addict.
I see, so you have a self destructive, addictive, personality. And you wallow in superstition to the point that you worship evil spirits like some cave man.
Do you think that this admission strengthens your case?
You sound like a deranged bum to me. Sad, because you wrote so well too.
I find it odd that an inordinate number of Xians boast about what rotten people they once were. I've heard from alcoholics, junkies, street people, violent ruffians-all manner of low-lives. But never have I heard an Atheist or Agnostic make a claim like that. They usually tell you what university they attended or what branch of the service they were in. I'm not saying that none of them were without problems but none boast of their own short comings.
But my mind has been renewed. I shouldn't even have any brain cells left.
Sounds like you've traded just one self-destructive addiction for another.
I never even heard of "creationism" until a year ago. Yet, I've always thought Darwin was a buffoon and a man lost at sea.
Really, and you with no brain cells?
Maybe if you spew this blather to your Kristian brothers they might like it. But to this audience you make yourself out to be a demented, junky, bum; and then go on to say demented things about science. No surprises there.
You took drugs, worshiped little devils, beat up Christians on the street and thought that one of the greatest minds the human race ever seen was a buffoon. Ooookay then, a resume like that will take you far.
Pacal's Wager states, if I'm wrong, I have nothing to lose and if you're wrong...well you have everything to lose.
Pacal made that wager to one of his students. Xians never record the student's reply, which was "But Professor, what if God is a God who honors courage?" Pascal had no answer for that.
… ask yourself where your hope lies. Live, procreate, die? What's life worth living for?
What a stupid question? What do you hope for? Do you think that you aren't going to end up in an urn like the rest of us?
You want more than life? !!!
Life isn't good enough for you, you've got to have eternity or nothing. Greedy little bastard aren't ya?
but I've prayed for everyone of you the last few nights, especially
you, Slater.
Well, that was pretty rude of you. I wouldn't have known if you hadn't mentioned it.
Let me know if god answers his voice mail.
There's a verse in the Bible that says, 'Do not throw your pearls to swine.' That what I feel I'm doing.
There's another verse that warns you about "suffering fools gladly" and that's what I feel we have been doing with you.
So you win, you're science wins. To you. I disagree with it all, but I'm not going to waste any more time doing this.
And it is a waste of time.
Not because you are making any case against evolution. It would be very interesting if you did. But because you don't even know what evolution is your statements are meaningless. Somebody told you it was against the word of god and you fell for it.
You know I spend hours reading books by evolutionists and listening to them speak on their beliefs and findings, yet I wonder how many of you have even stepped foot into a bible study.
You are a liar. You could not possibly have read even one book on evolution and made the arguments you did.
You don't even know what evolution is. You don't know what a law is. You don't know what a theory is. You don't know what science itself is.
Never mind not having a degree, these are all things you should have learned in you last year of Jr. High. Things easily picked up just by watching basic cable.
In fact, I'll die for it. I'd die for my beliefs, would you?
So now we have gone full circle without Flesh learning one single thing.
Evolution is not a belief.
Evolution is a branch of science. Science is the opposite of "belief" in a religious sense. Science requires that there be reproducible proof behind claims.
If you are going to call it Creation SCIENCE then you are going to have to supply proof that there even is a creator. You cannot simply disprove that evolution is a fact. If you did that it would leave you with no theory at all. To replace it with "creation science" it is up to you to supply the evidence to support this speculation.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 13:35:02 [Permalink]
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Ahem, since my potential responses to flesh and darwin have been thoroughly convered by others, I thought I might have some fun...
quote:
quote:
I never, ever believed in evolution, even when I was a godless, literally Satan worshipping drug addict. I hated God and did everything I could to show my hatred for Him. Horrible things you could never imagine. I was a violent, hateful man. Yet now I couldn't hurt a fly.
What it sounds like is that someone caught you at a low point in your life, and took advantage. They probably told you how worthless you were, and how you'd never be able to help yourself, and that you need God to ever be happy. I'm glad you turned your life around. I'm just sorry that it was based on a lie. You traded one addiction for another.
Honestly TD, you can't possibly know what you're talking about. I'm the one with the psychology degree. Here's what I have to say about it:
quote:
What it sounds like is that someone caught you at a low point in your life, and took advantage. They probably told you how worthless you were, and how you'd never be able to help yourself, and that you need God to ever be happy. I'm glad you turned your life around. I'm just sorry that it was based on a lie. You traded one addiction for another.
 
There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts! It wasn't my fault, I swear to god! - Jake Blues |
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