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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 03/28/2005 : 18:29:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
That some of you less thick headed might agree that there may be some merit to their belief. Some merit, reguardless of how remote.
But there is no merit in their belief what-so-ever. Because none of them campers outside the hospice have examined Terri as medical expert specializing in this kind of brain injury.
Left to ponder is the ethical implications of keeping her alive.
There is no reasonable doubt. Terri is gone forever. No amount of wishful thinking will change that. All experts qualified to give their opinion has testified to that as far as I know.
Michael is Terri's spouse: as such, it is his decision to make. Whatever happened to the sanctity of marriage? (just another hypocritical thing... Repubs and Christians argue against gay marriage claiming to destroy it, then pass a law that screws it over  ) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2005 : 19:46:33 [Permalink]
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Soon, all questions will be answered, one way or another.
quote:
By Jane Sutton
PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (Reuters) - The husband of brain-damaged Florida woman Terri Schiavo has ordered an autopsy after she dies to silence allegations his plan to cremate her body is aimed at hiding something, his lawyer said on Monday.
As supporters of Schiavo's parents took their fight to prolong her life to Washington 10 days after her feeding was stopped, Michael Schiavo's lawyer, George Felos, said her pulse had become "thready" and she had not passed urine for a while -- a possible sign of approaching death.
He said Michael Schiavo, who has been pitted against the parents in a seven-year legal conflict over whether to allow Schiavo to die, requested an official autopsy to show the "massive" extent of the brain damage she suffered in 1990.
"We didn't think it was appropriate to talk about an autopsy prior to Mrs. Schiavo's death," Felos told reporters outside his law office in Dunedin, Florida.
"But because claims have been made by, I guess, opponents of carrying out her wishes that there was some motive behind the cremation of Mrs. Schiavo we felt it was necessary to make that announcement today."
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2005 : 20:45:55 [Permalink]
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This will be an excellent opportunity to measure Terri's soul.
Since some Christians argue that the soul weighs 21gram why not put her on scales?
That way we can see if anything happens when she flatlines.
Since I believe Terri is already long since gone, I predict that the scales will not show any departing soul.
If the life-suppoters are correct in that Terri is still alive somewhere in there, then her soul would be there too, to depart when she flatlines.
I'm prepared to re-evaluate my position if the scales and/or the autopsy proves me wrong. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2005 : 20:55:50 [Permalink]
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Tim, Renae is a name I use for security reasons. My real name is sufficiently unusual, and my ISP is local...and this is the 'net. Call me paranoid (or maybe just smart.)
I'll ask you again: can you consider, just for a moment, that compassion exists in the views that disagree with yours? Because as misguided as I think the "feed Terri" brigade is, I think some of the elements of their arguments have merit.
The true bad guys here are the politicians giving false hope to grieving parents, not those who believe in death with dignity.
I swear we'd solve 50% of the world's problems if people minded their own damn business. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 00:58:57 [Permalink]
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Wow, been busy since my boy came into the world, but just had time for a read through this thread. What a time to be away!!!!
There is nothing more I can add here, but you may be interested in how this issue plays overseas. To be honest, it is making your great country look positively nuts. “Only in America” is a term often used here in Oz, but hell, this one is out of control. Even my sadomasochistic addiction to Fox News has worn thin; I can't bear to watch any more hypocrisy. The midnight bottle for Stinky Pants in front of Fox and Friends is no longer as amusing as it once was.
The Top Ten Conservative Idiots sums it all up beautifully.
What I find poignant is that slowly but surely the hardcore Christian Fundamentalists are becoming indistinguishable from the Islamic Fundamentalists they so despise.
Polls state that most Americans disagree with Government intervention. It seems that the long time ploy of Republicans using a wedge issue to polarise the electorate has for once backfired horrendously. Hopefully this despicable tactic will hurt them and in 2006 and 2008 the last four and a bit years will only surface in my worst nightmares.
I just hope they let her rest in peace when she finally does pass.
Anyway, in between work and the three-hourly baying of a six week old, my presence will be much diminished. I will pop in and check up on you all from time to time though…..behave yourselves….that also means you Dude my fiery friend.  |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 01:49:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
It's thumbs to the earth and lets bash Bush. Woe is me and I need tax breaks. I get it.
No. Clearly you don't "get it".
You refuse to respond in any meaningfull way to the content of this thread.
You continue to post nonsense about "erring on the side of life"...
You refuse to acknowledge that there is not ONE doctor, outside of the ones hired by lawyers, who agrees with the parent's position on this case.
quote:
Unless they lied, Fox news reported her to be on a morphine drip.
They lied (or, if you prefer, misreported). Per the press conference with one of Mr Schaivo's lawyers on Monday they only morphine being administered is via suppository, and she has had only two doses in the past 11 days. There are no IV lines available to which a "morphine drip" or other fluids can be attached.
quote:
I never said "Liberal" to be an insult. I simply noted that you would be a good representitive for them.
Actually, you said filthy would be a good representative. And your statement was an insult. Don't pretend it wasn't.
quote:
It is funny that you can misuse my name "Timmay" deliberatly several times and fall back when you think you are being insulted.
Yes. Me comparing you to a character on the show "South Park" is an insult. A deliberate one at that. Used after your second or third post in which you deliberately ignore the material content of this thread, fail to construct coherent sentences, and then insult people for not being able to decipher your posts.
So, I'll refrain from further childish nonsense if you will respond to some questions, Tim.
1. Why do you think that the (as far as I can discover) unanimous unbiased medical opinion on the case of Mrs Schaivo is that she is in a persistent vegitative state. Remove all doctors who have not actually examined Mrs Shcaivo, and all doctors who represent one side or ther other in the legal argument. Find one who does not concur with the diagnosis of PVS without chance of recovery beyond her current state. Over the last 10 years there will be ATLEAST 15-20 different doctors, with varying specialties, involved in this case who are not involved with the legal procedings or either side of the family.
2. Explain why you think it is OK for the government to interfere in a private family matter and violate the marriage rights/responsibilities of these two married people.
Start with those two. Please answer.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 01:51:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
Wow, been busy since my boy came into the world, but just had time for a read through this thread. What a time to be away!!!!
There is nothing more I can add here, but you may be interested in how this issue plays overseas. To be honest, it is making your great country look positively nuts. “Only in America” is a term often used here in Oz, but hell, this one is out of control. Even my sadomasochistic addiction to Fox News has worn thin; I can't bear to watch any more hypocrisy. The midnight bottle for Stinky Pants in front of Fox and Friends is no longer as amusing as it once was.
The Top Ten Conservative Idiots sums it all up beautifully.
What I find poignant is that slowly but surely the hardcore Christian Fundamentalists are becoming indistinguishable from the Islamic Fundamentalists they so despise.
Polls state that most Americans disagree with Government intervention. It seems that the long time ploy of Republicans using a wedge issue to polarise the electorate has for once backfired horrendously. Hopefully this despicable tactic will hurt them and in 2006 and 2008 the last four and a bit years will only surface in my worst nightmares.
I just hope they let her rest in peace when she finally does pass.
Anyway, in between work and the three-hourly baying of a six week old, my presence will be much diminished. I will pop in and check up on you all from time to time though…..behave yourselves….that also means you Dude my fiery friend.
Well stinky pants is a cutie, gez.
The top 10 is great.
I was so disgusted by both FOX and Scarborough tonight trying to make a case for Michael Schiavo wanting his wife to die so she wouldn't get a little speech therapy and communicate the horrors he put her through that caused her heart attack. To think they have an audience that could find that the least bit credible is frightening. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 03:24:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
Wow, been busy since my boy came into the world, but just had time for a read through this thread. What a time to be away!!!!
There is nothing more I can add here, but you may be interested in how this issue plays overseas. To be honest, it is making your great country look positively nuts. “Only in America” is a term often used here in Oz, but hell, this one is out of control. Even my sadomasochistic addiction to Fox News has worn thin; I can't bear to watch any more hypocrisy. The midnight bottle for Stinky Pants in front of Fox and Friends is no longer as amusing as it once was.
The Top Ten Conservative Idiots sums it all up beautifully.
What I find poignant is that slowly but surely the hardcore Christian Fundamentalists are becoming indistinguishable from the Islamic Fundamentalists they so despise.
Polls state that most Americans disagree with Government intervention. It seems that the long time ploy of Republicans using a wedge issue to polarise the electorate has for once backfired horrendously. Hopefully this despicable tactic will hurt them and in 2006 and 2008 the last four and a bit years will only surface in my worst nightmares.
I just hope they let her rest in peace when she finally does pass.
Anyway, in between work and the three-hourly baying of a six week old, my presence will be much diminished. I will pop in and check up on you all from time to time though…..behave yourselves….that also means you Dude my fiery friend.
Well stinky pants is a cutie, gez.
The top 10 is great.
I was so disgusted by both FOX and Scarborough tonight trying to make a case for Michael Schiavo wanting his wife to die so she wouldn't get a little speech therapy and communicate the horrors he put her through that caused her heart attack. To think they have an audience that could find that the least bit credible is frightening.
Frightening yes but suprising; no, as this thread started by Kil demonstrates. Different topic but same, general theme.
quote:
What I find poignant is that slowly but surely the hardcore Christian Fundamentalists are becoming indistinguishable from the Islamic Fundamentalists they so despise.
Too true, Gez. But they have always been thus, just not as visible as recently. They will take us back to the 14th Century, if they can.
For amusment during midnight feeding and clean-up, I might suggest you find a Three Stooges channel. It's pretty much the same thing as Fox but without the blatent misinformation.
My fond regards to Li'l Stinker. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 04:17:28 [Permalink]
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Just came across this:
quote:
All of it is madness, this circus of unchecked emotions surrounding whether Terri Schiavo should have a feeding tube reinserted to keep her alive.
The saga has garnered non-stop play on the front pages of newspapers and on the evening news.
It has gotten President Bush rightfully in hot water with Native American groups. They said the president ho-hummed the tragic deaths of nine people gunned down by a suicidal kid on an impoverished Minnesota Indian reservation.
Bush, however, did take time out to address the Schiavo issue as if it were a crisis of national security.
The case is driving Americans to the brink of stupidity.
A Washington state woman called a Philadelphia-area relative of the Schiavo clan numerous times last week. She blasted members of the family for allowing Schiavo, without her feeding tube, to suffer "an agonizing starvation death."
Like this author, I again ask: where is the outcry for all of the others? Where is the rage, the demands for justice for those whom, through no fault of their own, fall victim to a system that is too-often draconian in it's means and methods?
And the left is only slightly less guilty than the right in that they too, often ignore those not made a cause célébrée by the media and the political mendicants that exploit them.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 06:41:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Like this author, I again ask: where is the outcry for all of the others? Where is the rage, the demands for justice for those whom, through no fault of their own, fall victim to a system that is too-often draconian in it's means and methods?
A good question, which is why I've asked Timgraysr how he feels about the death penalty and the war in Iraq, since it's pretty obvious that both have claimed numerous lives which were both innocent and powerless (lives which, like Terri's, one would think Tim holds more sacred than others). And several people have asked about Sun Hudson. Tim refuses to answer these questions, though. Seems to me to be a symptom of the cognitive disonnance necessary to maintain the hypocrisy he's already displayed.
And yes, I do wonder how many of the other people who cheer on the death threats also share these problems. It's a pity nobody seems to be focusing polls on these questions, with that target population. Surely, since the cries of "hypocrisy" are ringing around the Web, they're at least a little bit newsworthy? Especially to some "liberal" media outlet, somewhere. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 08:17:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
I suggested that if you and those who say let her die didn't believe that those protesting couldn't spell GED and in fact believed that they were doctors lawyers etc. That some of you less thick headed might agree that there may be some merit to their belief. Some merit, reguardless of how remote. If there is just a slim posibility that they could be right and yes, it would mean you were wrong. If there was that posibility shouldn't we error on the side of life?
Please try to use some minimal grammatical structure. Complete sentences and the occasional paragraph break will help you make your points better.
As for erring: You cannot fine one doctor who hasn't been hired by Mrs Schaivo's parents (or lawyers, to argue the parent's position), who has actually examined Mrs Schaivo and reviewed her medical record, who agrees with the parent's position on this case. Not one.
What you fail to comprehend, Timmay!, is that you are in a place where people are not afraid to admit error. This is a skeptics forum. If we are wrong, we freely admit it. It is YOU who is apparently unwilling to actually evaluate evidence and reach a conclusion based on logic.
Terri Schaivo is in a permanent vegitative state. Ignore ALL the court appointed doctors, ignore all the doctors hired by her parents, and ignore all the doctors hired by Mr Schaivo and his lawyers. What you have left is the ones who are exempt from any bias in forming a medical opinion on this case. NONE of the doctors in this category agree with Mrs Schaivo's parents. To my knoledge, they all agree with the diagnosis of PVS and no chance for any recovery beyond where she is now.
RE Wendy's linked article:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050328/ts_alt_afp/useuthanasiajustice_050328195614
quote:
"I have a grave concern that they'll expedite the process to kill her with an overdose of morphine," Bob Schindler told the press Monday outside the hospice where his 41-year old daughter is a patient.
This is so ridiculous that I actually laughed out loud. In 11 days, per a CNN interview with one of Mr Schaivo's lawyers, she has recieved TWO doses of morphine, administered via suppository. It amazes me that people can make statements like this one by the father. He clearly doesn't know anything about the drug in the form it is being administered. It would take dozens of morphine suppositories to cause an overdose, if it could be done at all. The people caring for this woman have administrators and lawyers checking their every move and ok-ing any action before it is taken. Then their documentation is likely being rough drafted, reviewed, and ok'd, before it makes it into the medical record.
Unless they lied, Fox news reported her to be on a morphine drip. Just in case? This is a mute point. I doubt she could return to her earlier state from this point. Several times in my life I ran into the term: "The sevens rule". ie seven minuts without air, days without water and weeks without food. I used it earlier not considering I might be wrong. Perhaps it is incorrect. But she does seem to be holding on. There were doctors who visited and concur that she is gone. Based only on her visual data and low EKG readings. X-rays show nothing but a brain and any obstructions in the brain.The catscan that was done over ten years ago was not 100 % conclusive. For this reason most physicians that are treating patients based on catscans are opting to have their patients get MRI's. So, it comes down to who do you trust with her life. Some doctors that have never spent more than an hour at a time with her. And when did a doctor ever spend an hour with someone short of surgery. Or her parents that are with her every day. They say they understand the bable. I don't know. But neither do you Dave. I hope that you have not smarted your way out of your ability to hope. And it's Tim Dave not Timmay. I don't agree with you but, I should not try to belittle you. After all, you may be right.
What a load of bullshit.
1) Two providers claim to be able to treat Terri Schiavo. Neither have examined her or her medical records. They are
a) A neurologist from the Mayo clinic who has not examined Terri and has not examined her medical record who has deep ties to the pro-life movement.
b) Hammerfahr who believes that by increasing the blood flow to dead tissue, you'll get something other than dead tissue. He also has not examined Terri or her medical records. At least he wants to put her in a hyperbaric chamber and pump her full of drugs.
I've made note of these two and want to make sure they don't come within 100 yards of my medical care.
2) The CT scan definatively shows that 40% of her brain is now a liquid. That kind of stuff doesn't reform.
3) no less than 20 personal and court appointed doctors have extensively examined Terri Schiavo and her medical records. Most of them had no social or economic gain from the medical decision they made. They all declared Terri Schiavo to be in a PVS with no chance at recovery, severe hypoxic brain injury, and a great majority if not all he cerebral cortex is dead.
Who would I trust with her life? That is a bullshit question. It is designed only to demonize those who choose to believe the majority of medical opinion over two quacks who have never examined the patient.
Who's medical opinion do I put more faith in? The 20 seperate doctors who all found Terri to be in a PVS with no chance at recovery. Not the two quacks who either have no clue about medicine or have a social agenda to push. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 03/29/2005 08:27:13 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 08:57:18 [Permalink]
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(CNN reports that Jesse Jackson has now become yet another politician trying to butt in on private business.)
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
b) Hammerfahr who believes that by increasing the blood flow to dead tissue, you'll get something other than dead tissue. He also has not examined Terri or her medical records. At least he wants to put her in a hyperbaric chamber and pump her full of drugs.
Hammesfahr was one of two doctors hired by Terri's parents due to a court order for five doctors (preferrably neurologists) to review Terri's case. (Had I been the judge, I would have ordered neurologists or other brain experts, and this guy would have been voir dired out of my courtroom, but I wasn't.) Hammesfahr spent a total of ten hours with Terri over two days, and did examine her medical records. But his hyperbaric quackery disqualifies him of being an unbiased expert, even if he weren't on the Schindler's payroll. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 09:13:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
(CNN reports that Jesse Jackson has now become yet another politician trying to butt in on private business.)
I read that he was there on the invitation of her family. Here is a link to the article. The relevant information is near the middle of the page:
quote:
At the invitation of Schiavo's family, the Rev. Jesse Jackson scheduled a visit to the hospice to pray and possibly see Schiavo herself, said Jackson spokesman Shelley Davis. Jackson last week issued a statement backing reinsertion of Schiavo's feeding tube and calling for her parents' supporters to use “this same passion” to combat hunger and starvation worldwide.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 09:17:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
But his hyperbaric quackery disqualifies him of being an unbiased expert, even if he weren't on the Schindler's payroll.
Hyperbaric therapy is used for two things. First, to treat pressure sickness.
Second, to treat wounds that are slow to heal. Usually diabetic skin ulcers or surgical wounds in diabetic patients.
The idea behind it is that the increased partial pressure of oxygen will increase the ability of tissues to heal. But only tissues that CAN heal in the first place. Brain tissue, once destroyed, does not fall into this category.
Hammerfahr does appear to be on the quackish side of things. This is the same jackass who is getting wrongly credited on FOX as being a Nobel Prize nominee.
Can I ask how it is that Rather gets fired over failing to fact check, and FOX gets cheered on for deliberately lying?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 10:03:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
I read that he was there on the invitation of her family.
Indeed, he was. What turned him into a political butt-insky is the fact that he's been on the phone trying to convince three more Florida Senators to vote for emergency legislation which would "save Terri's life."
Even if he were asked to make such calls by the Schindlers, he could have chosen to respectively decline to become so intimately a part of the political grandstanding going on. So, whatever respect I had for the man has pretty much vanished. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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