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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
 Posted - 04/13/2005 : 06:58:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
However, a better question: Could Hitler? I believe the answer to this is yes.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Nope, 'cause he's dead. Had he repented before he died, he could have gone to Heaven. But once he's dead, he's stripped of his "free will," and must just suffer eternal damnation.
The Mormons have a solution for this - baptism for the dead. A living person is baptised on behalf of the deceased so that he or she can still obtain salvation after death. The deceased is presumed to retain free will and can accept or deny this gesture. Of course, having seen behind the curtain by then they'd be crazy to refuse, right? 
Edited to add: My favorite question (and we've discussed this here many times) is: How can free will exist in the presence of an omnipotent and omniscient God?
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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| Edited by - Wendy on 04/13/2005 07:05:07 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 07:09:22 [Permalink]
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| Right. If God knows everything and created everything, then he knew who was going to Hell before he created us, so therefore he created some of us to go to Hell. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 08:25:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
The Mormons have a solution for this - baptism for the dead. A living person is baptised on behalf of the deceased so that he or she can still obtain salvation after death. The deceased is presumed to retain free will and can accept or deny this gesture. Of course, having seen behind the curtain by then they'd be crazy to refuse, right?
Yeah, and they've been in the news recently for this practice. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 10:39:54 [Permalink]
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| Creation, you are making the false assumption that evolution has something to do with the nature of the universe. It only applies to changing one lifeform into another, thats it. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 11:16:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Right. If God knows everything and created everything, then he knew who was going to Hell before he created us, so therefore he created some of us to go to Hell.
That one is actually pretty biblical...read Romans 9, where god says that he hated Esau before he was born. That's called double predestination, which Prebyterians are excited about. Other denominations will try to wriggle out of it by ignoring or reinterpreting the passages that they don't like.
Here's a nice one...where is the justice in condemning someone to hell for eternity...for what the person does for a finite amount of time? After all, recorded history is a drop in the bucket compared to forever... |
Remarkable claims require remarkable proof.
-Carl Sagan |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 12:19:59 [Permalink]
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Actually any span of time is a drop in an endless ocean compared to forever...but good point, its a good one for showing folks the kind of sadistic crap their love machine gods can be into.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 12:20:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
<snip>
Edited to add: My favorite question (and we've discussed this here many times) is: How can free will exist in the presence of an omnipotent and omniscient God?
This is the basis for Faith, isn't it? God wants us all to have free will, to choose God and goodness without being intimidated by the certain knowledge that God exists. Because if God walked openly among us doing things that made it a certainty that God exists, then who would choose to reject Him? Who would dare? So God hides, giving only hints of His existance, requiring us all to have Faith that He's actually there.
So I often ask fundies a related question to Faith and Free Will:
I lay out the whole justification for Faith as a means to maintain Free Will. They usually agree. Then I ask them why it is they support laws to make abortion or stem cell research illegal? How can they dare take away Free Will when God Himself would not? They are essentially taking away people's ability to choose between right and wrong.
One favorite response is to point out that laws against murder and theft then are also against God. But of course those laws are critical to maintaining a functional society - if theft and murder were legal, our civilization would likely collapse into anarchy. But laws against abortion or stem cell research are not so fundamental to civilization. They are 'optional' based on religous belief more than a critical social need and so are firmly in the realm of Free Will.
So I go on noting that Jesus never told anyone to make law to enforce His teachings. He told his followers to spread the Good News not legislate it. Law based on religous teachings is literally humanity taking on a role God Himself would not take on. And finally I ask, if God really isn't into Free Will, and He does support the legislation of His teachings, then what is the purpose of Faith? Why, then, does God hide? |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 04/13/2005 12:24:29 |
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pfretzschner
Skeptic Friend
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 12:22:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Of course, but most Christians will vehemently argue that Jesus' sacrifice entailed much more than simply having his weekend shot to hell.
That was a shitty weekend, wasn't it? And He had tickets to "Cats" on Saturday, too! |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 13:38:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
God wants us all to have free will, to choose God and goodness without being intimidated by the certain knowledge that God exists. Because if God walked openly among us doing things that made it a certainty that God exists, then who would choose to reject Him? Who would dare?
Um, Adam and Eve? Satan? That's why I always call shenanigans on this "explanation" for god's absence to begin with. Clearly being in his presence doesn't serve as an impediment to free will. You can still reject god on principle.
In fact, I would argue that his invisible, undetectable nature is the true barrier to free choice. How can I rationally choose something which in all probability is a fantasy? Now, if god were to show himself, give an account of his "plan" and explain it to my satisfaction, then I could freely decide whether or not this god is something I want to have anything to do with.
The problem is christians cannot conceive of anyone willingly rejecting god to his face. But if he is anything like the monster they worship, I'd do just that. Obviously I won't be the first.
But I'm not given that choice. I'm supposed to make a decision without confirmation that god even exists. That's no choice at all.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/13/2005 14:27:59 |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 13:55:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
The problem is christians cannot conceive of anyone willingly rejecting god to his face. But if he is anything like the monster they worship, I'd do just that. Obviously I won't be the first.
Here Here! |
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Timgraysr
New Member
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 16:17:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
For "Those seeking enlightenment"
The second question developed from the first..
What will you do when you find enlightenment, as you will be just another crackpot who has it all figured out?
What if enlightenment was not what you expected, if in fact the information was essentially useless in a practical sense?
Hello Again, I thought I would take a stab at some of these questions.After, I hoped I could get a reply from one of my own. I will start with the easy ones. These are personal and as I am sure to be reminded, subject to interpretation.:
The beginning of enlightenment is the first time you become aware that you are doing wrong, sinning against God. We say we are enlightened now, So smart. But remember as a young man or woman perhaps as a teen when guilt came. When you knew you were wrong.
That was the beginning of enlightenment. For me the completeion was when I realized the wages of sin was death. A spititual death. Eternal seperation from God and that he loved ME enough to give his only begotten son. Short version, I got saved 8/8/82 and have not lost my enlightenment. Factually it could not be torn from me not even at my own request.
My question is this. I look at sights for other beliefs. Save for Islam,there doesn't seem to be that much anomosity toward their believers. The Muslems I kind of understand though I do not agree with it. Nothing for the Budists, The Hindu sights are clear. I see the cows in the streets and the Gangies poluted with rats reveling in grain sacrifices while their children starve in the "City of Joy". I don't even see anything in the scores of cults we have in the U.S. alone. Some going back to the beginning of the 20 Century.
Why the Christians? Because Buda and Mohamid are dead and we serve a rissen savior? Is that why when the TV or Radio awakes us to music,cartoons or even porn we are content to let it be.But let it be the "Word Of God", That two-edged sword that cuts assunder even the soul. And just see how fast it can be turned off.
Why the Christians? |
Tim Gray |
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Timgraysr
New Member
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 16:27:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bloody_peasant
quote:
The problem is christians cannot conceive of anyone willingly rejecting god to his face. But if he is anything like the monster they worship, I'd do just that. Obviously I won't be the first.
Here Here!
You Bloody peasant? Sorry, I just had to. Obviously you know little about Christions or Christ for that matter.Don't think so much of yourself. You are not unique. You are not even accuratly informed. Most of the world hates God. They hate his Word because it convicts. They hate the Name of Jesus because they have to deal with it some day for better or for worse and they hate the living God because he cannot be molded into their immage. They hate it all with the same passion you now have for what I have written. There are many that tell the tell of what they would do when they met him. I gullable and I don't think so. |
Tim Gray |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 17:03:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
You Bloody peasant? Sorry, I just had to. Obviously you know little about Christions or Christ for that matter.Don't think so much of yourself. You are not unique. You are not even accuratly informed. Most of the world hates God. They hate his Word because it convicts. They hate the Name of Jesus because they have to deal with it some day for better or for worse and they hate the living God because he cannot be molded into their immage. They hate it all with the same passion you now have for what I have written. There are many that tell the tell of what they would do when they met him. I gullable and I don't think so.
Timmy, the only thing I hate are self-righteous assholes who think that they have life, the Universe, and everything all figured out for everyone else; I hate people who think a single ancient text is the best and only way to understand reality; and I hate ignorance it all its forms, but especially so when it seeks to ensnare others.
The real reason that your religion is occasionally ridiculed is because many find it ridiculous, not because it is correct. I don't know why you have to lie to yourself so, but it is absolutely untrue that anyone dislikes christianity because it "convicts." At least be honest with yourself, man.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/13/2005 17:50:32 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 17:28:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
Most of the world hates God. They hate his Word because it convicts. They hate the Name of Jesus because they have to deal with it some day for better or for worse and they hate the living God because he cannot be molded into their immage. They hate it all with the same passion you now have for what I have written. There are many that tell the tell of what they would do when they met him. I gullable and I don't think so.
You do realize all of the other religions say the exact same thing (of course, given the proper differences)? Please enlighten my poor ignorant self, and tell me exactly why yours is to be held different from the others.
Keep in mind I don't hate God. My mother is very Christian; the very best person I know and love. I just don't believe it. I don't buy it, despite of all she says to me, everyday, many times a day. I don't care about what Christians do or don't, as long as it doesn't influence me. Don't care about muslims, jews, hindus or buddhists, either (and I've friends in basically all of those). Oh well; maybe God just wants to burn me forever. Maybe my opinion will change. Don't know. Don't care. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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| Edited by - Siberia on 04/13/2005 17:32:03 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 17:36:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
They hate it all with the same passion you now have for what I have written.
Mr. Gray, I don't believe anybody has any passionate feelings for what you have written, I, for one, am having a difficult time understanding it. Please explain the following passages: quote:
I realized the wages of sin was death. A spititual death. Eternal seperation from God and that he loved ME enough to give his only begotten son. ... Factually it could not be torn from me not even at my own request.
Are you saying that if you sin you will die spiritually? What does God's Only Begotten Son have to do with this? What, exactly, is it that cannot be torn from you?quote:
Save for Islam,there doesn't seem to be that much anomosity toward their believers.
Are you saying people have animosity only for followers of Islam? Or are you saying that followers of Islam are the only ones who have animosity?quote:
I don't even see anything in the scores of cults we have in the U.S. alone. Some going back to the beginning of the 20 Century.
What don't you see about the cults? What does the beginning of the 20th century have to do with anything?quote:
Is that why when the TV or Radio awakes us to music,cartoons or even porn we are content to let it be.
I cannot even begin to guess what you are trying to say here.quote:
Why the Christians?
Why not the Christians? Seriously, though, where did this question come from? What is its relevance?quote:
Most of the world hates God. They hate his Word because it convicts.
Where in the world did you get this idea? Most people in the world either claim to love god, or just don't care. quote:
There are many that tell the tell of what they would do when they met him. I gullable and I don't think so.
This is another statement which I cannot guess your intent.
Mr. Gray, it would help considerably if you would organize your thoughts prior to writing them down. I assure you, I am not the only person who cannot understand what meaning you are trying to convey. |
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