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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 04/21/2005 : 06:45:16
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With the following in mind:- A large majority of Republican voters were against Congressional interference in the Schiavo mess.
- Some Republican Senator publicly announced that he wouldn't vote against his party regarding John Bolton.
- 41% of Republican voters are opposed to the elimination of judicial filibusters, yet only two Republican Senators oppose that "nuclear option."
- Senate Democrats have publicly vowed, if the "nuclear option" is exercised, to use whatever parliamentary tactics they can to screw the Republicans.
- We've got a President who simply rubber-stamps whatever comes out of Congress.
- The Ethics Committee is non-functional due to bipartisan bickering.
I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that the idea I held yesterday - that we in the U.S. are governed by representatives of the citizens - is a silly, idealistic notion with no basis in reality. It has become clear that the Republican and Democratic National Committees are the real driving force behind public policy, and they are free from the Constitutional shackles of public responsibility.
And even more sadly, only the judiciary is working as it should, and that's so annoying to the Republicans that there is (apparently) serious talk about "mass impeachments."
Oh, this loss of innocence pains me greatly. Dammit.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 07:20:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that the idea I held yesterday - that we in the U.S. are governed by representatives of the citizens - is a silly, idealistic notion with no basis in reality.
Just now realizing that?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 07:26:58 [Permalink]
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Evolution yet again, Dave. The government has become the representitive of the forces that deal with it the most, as was almost enevitable considering that Joe and Jane Registeredvoter are only concerned with the welfare of their party. And the rest don't give a rat's ass about any of it.
And we Independants should be a cut above this, but are not.
Well, what goes around comes around and when the pain gets sharp enough, things'll change. That's evolution writ small.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 07:39:20 [Permalink]
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Thanks for bursting my illusions that the government was salvagable Dave....
Maybe we should start our own party. "We will do what you want." could be our slogan.  |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 07:41:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
It has become clear that the Republican and Democratic National Committees are the real driving force behind public policy,..
Yes, that is their purpose, that is what they have worked for.
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 07:51:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
It has become clear that the Republican and Democratic National Committees are the real driving force behind public policy, and they are free from the Constitutional shackles of public responsibility.
And we have to drive on down this sad rode to the even more sad conclusion. What controls the direction of the RNC/DNC? Its not the people, its the large lobby groups and the large corporations. Unless you can afford $2,000 chicken dinners or $2,000 rounds of golf or special flights for golf in Russia then your influence on what the DNC/RNC does is negligible.
We are no longer a government of the people, for the people, nor by the people, but are now a plutocracy. A government for the rich, by the rich, and of the rich. How else do you explain the passage of such laws as the new Bankruptcy laws or the new class action laws? These laws take away protections from individuals and what individual in his right mind would want to take away protections? This is pure unadulterated quid pro quo politics with big business and the wealthy.
Its the military-industrial complex Eisenhower warned us about and we as a nation have failed to heed his warning.
quote:
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
(Emphasis mine)
a little further in his speech.
quote:
As we peer into society's future, we -- you and I, and our government -- must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage
and
quote:
Down the long lane of the history yet to be written America knows that this world of ours, ever growing smaller, must avoid becoming a community of dreadful fear and hate, and be instead, a proud confederation of mutual trust and respect.
http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html
While his demonizing of atheism and overt religious claims may ruffle some of our feathers, it is amazing how prescient many aspects of his speech our.
America's democracy is dying a slow painful death. When corporations are granted rights as if they are individual citizens and when wealthy individuals, lobby groups, and corporations are granted far more power than individuals then our liberty suffers and our individual rights are diminished so that corporations and wealthy may have more.
In my opinion there is hope. I just recently finished reading Joe Trippi's (former Howard Dean campaign manager) "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised : Democracy, the Internet, and the Overthrow of Everything" and have to say it was uplifting. Its main point is how the Internet has the capability to transform today's politics and media and relinquish control from millionaires and billionaires back to the American people. By having open discussions amongst peers instead of talking down to us by broadcast media the Internet becomes a vehicle for open discussion and democracy.
Also the Dean campaign showed that a viable presidential campaign can be ran based on contributions coming mostly from your average citizen. True grassroots at its best. Also it showed the power of the Internet and blogs in getting people involved in their politics and probably why so many Deaniacs were so passionate about their candidate was because they had vested a personal interest in him and his campaign or as Trippi calls it their campaign. The blog and openness of the campaign also allowed individuals normally not involved to contribute and improve on all aspects of the campaign, to see fund raising goals, and to help pursue them.
While the Dean campaign failed it can be viewed as a first step towards a more representative government. However we must now be ever more vigilent as already attempts to control, stifle, and destroy this new vehicle of people power are being created.
I think an even more radical and permanent fix would be to cap all contributions to some low dollar amount and limit it to individuals only. No corporation nor lobby contributions, just individuals and a limit of say $100.00 or some amount tied to a low % of median income maybe even by region. Force the candidates to get out and campaign with the real people for their money not just board members and lobby executives.
As I was just interested in defeating Bush I paid little attention to the Dean campaign, but after reading this book, I wish I had gotten involved. I feel like I missed something. :( |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 08:02:16 [Permalink]
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"We are no longer a government of the people"
Never was. Wasn't intended to be. Not unless by "the people" you mean rich white men. Howard Dean would have brought nothing different, just like Bill Clinton did not. Bill Clinton just attempted to make the appearance of not being mean-spirited. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 08:05:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
"We are no longer a government of the people"
Never was. Wasn't intended to be. Not unless by "the people" you mean rich white men. Howard Dean would have brought nothing different, just like Bill Clinton did not. Bill Clinton just attempted to make the appearance of not being mean-spirited.
I agree I guess in principle. We've always been a plutocracy in disguise. Maybe its time we start to change that.  |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 09:12:16 [Permalink]
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But look. It's our fault! If the people actually took the time to learn the issues, and not fall for sound bites, and elected representatives that actually represented them, and threw out the ones who don't, well…
We (as in most of us) let this happen.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 09:31:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
We (as in most of us) let this happen.
To an extent, but most of us spend our lives trying to survive and are indoctrinated at schools and newspapers to see things through a certain filter.
If you have the New York Times cheering criminal actions such as the U.S. attack on half the world, then how stupid am I to believe it?
No, the wealthy class have run things since the time of King George, and just another wealthy set of people took over. Yes, they have to now have some facade of appeasing the public, and things have improved greatly, but it's still the same game. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 09:35:57 [Permalink]
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And again, I agree with Kil.
If you want government by and for the people, then get out there and work for it -- it won't come to you just because you think it ought to and some quaint piece of antique parchment says that it should. If you think that, the corporations and the fundies will forever own your ass through their elected representitives, not yours.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 09:42:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
But look. It's our fault! If the people actually took the time to learn the issues, and not fall for sound bites, and elected representatives that actually represented them, and threw out the ones who don't, well…
We (as in most of us) let this happen.
Couldn't agree more. However those of us in the know probably can do more then we are now trying to get others in the know and who knows maybe someday a majority will be in the know  |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 09:47:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
No, the wealthy class have run things since the time of King George, and just another wealthy set of people took over. Yes, they have to now have some facade of appeasing the public, and things have improved greatly, but it's still the same game.
First it goes all the way back to at least the invention of agriculture, maybe over 10kya ;) when the first chiefdoms began to appear and noble priesthoods began to dominate the wealth ;).
Second I say its time we broke the game board and created our own game. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 10:11:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
And again, I agree with Kil.
If you want government by and for the people, then get out there and work for it -- it won't come to you just because you think it ought to and some quaint piece of antique parchment says that it should. If you think that, the corporations and the fundies will forever own your ass through their elected representitives, not yours.
I agree, but I do not agree that it's my fault that I've been miseducated, nor do I think such a change will be easy. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 10:45:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think an even more radical and permanent fix would be to cap all contributions to some low dollar amount and limit it to individuals only. No corporation nor lobby contributions, just individuals and a limit of say $100.00 or some amount tied to a low % of median income maybe even by region. Force the candidates to get out and campaign with the real people for their money not just board members and lobby executives.
The major problem with campaign financing is not with the ammount of money the candidates personally raise, but yeah, it would be better if the max cap were lower.
The main issue concerning money in political campaigns is the IRS code 527. Non-taxable, can accept unlimited ammounts of money from anyone, and can use that money to promote their "single issue" during political campaigns. The only limit is that they cannot directly say "Vote for our candidate." They can smear and assassinate the character of the guy they don't like however. They need to be completely banned.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 12:50:22 [Permalink]
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A little off topic -- or maybe not:
quote:
Within minutes of the media announcement that Cardinal Ratizinger was selected Pope Benedict - I refuse to call a process whereby less than 1% of 1% can vote an election - I received an email asking if I was going to switch churches or wait to be excommunicated! My friends laughed and said “A progressive American Catholic is now a double oxymoron!”
The first Pope joke is already racing around Rome. When gregarious and generous Pope John XXIII was made pope, his first words were “Be not afraid!” Now when Pope Benedict is sworn in his first words will be “Be afraid! Be very afraid!”
For those of you who are not Catholic, selecting Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as Pope is a lot like selecting Attorney General John Ashcroft as President. Ratzinger has been the enforcer of orthodoxy for years. No women priests. No gay unions. No questioning authority. Fall in line.
As a progressive American Catholic I feel uncomfortably out of place - both in country and in church. While the last Pope spoke passionately about poverty and peace and solidarity - these principles were undercut by the practices of protection of the all-male clerical hierarchy.
Likewise, we have a president who speaks boldly about freedom and democracy and opportunity - yet these same principles are undercut by practices of global military and economic domination and widespread denial of social and human rights at home and abroad.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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