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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 04/21/2005 : 13:19:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Just now realizing that?
Please, show some compassion. Skeptics are simply less apt to be in denial, not immune to it altogether.
Paulos23 wrote:quote:
Thanks for bursting my illusions that the government was salvagable Dave....
Thanks. I needed to know that I wasn't alone in being delusional (you imply you were only at a slightly different level of idealism).
I imagine that now the scales have fallen from my eyes, I'll either find The Daily Show to be even funnier than I already find it, or I'll sob uncontrollably when it comes on. Or both. Time will tell... |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 13:23:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Just now realizing that?
Please, show some compassion. Skeptics are simply less apt to be in denial, not immune to it altogether.
Paulos23 wrote:quote:
Thanks for bursting my illusions that the government was salvagable Dave....
Thanks. I needed to know that I wasn't alone in being delusional (you imply you were only at a slightly different level of idealism).
I imagine that now the scales have fallen from my eyes, I'll either find The Daily Show to be even funnier than I already find it, or I'll sob uncontrollably when it comes on. Or both. Time will tell...
What's worse is that as hard as I try, I simply cannot tell myself that it doesn't matter. I don't want to care-- I want to keep my head in the sand. But try as I might, I can't. Hence the weeping... |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 13:46:42 [Permalink]
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The one thing my Dad always says is "Never underestimate a politician's ability to sell this country down the river."
I am of the "There is no such thing as an honest politician" camp. Republican, Democrat... makes little difference in the end. Sure, I wish that W. was out of the Oval Office, but I have no confidence that any of the other candidates would have acted radically different.
I was thinking about Monarchies the other day. Did the laborer in the field really care so much about goings on of court? Or did he simply shrug, comment that all kings are corrupt, and return to hoeing the field? How different is that from what we have today?
I don't believe our political system is nearly as enlightened as we often pretend. While we have the right to vote, there is little accountability for our public representatives. Deals get made and legislation gets passed that screws us all over every day and it is simply regarded as business as usual. Now, I don't advocate non-involvement. Certainly we as voters must do what we can in terms of pressuring politicians, but I have no illusions about the inherent limitations imposed upon the average American citizen's ability to effect substantive change.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/21/2005 13:48:54 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 15:27:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Certainly we as voters must do what we can in terms of pressuring politicians, but I have no illusions about the inherent limitations imposed upon the average American citizen's ability to effect substantive change.
A small group of determined individuals can make a difference, can change the world. Seriously, if you think about it, this is the only thing that has ever really done so. (I read that someplace, and upon reflection it seems very true) A few people at the center who have the determination, and sometimes the rest of the world just follows (or gets dragged) along. Not to say that it always works mind you...
But look at our government now. Controlled by a small group of neocons who have manipulated a big block (conservative christians) to vote for them. The core group of them is not really all that big. Pearle, Wolfowitz, Rove, et al. They sure as shit don't have the best interest of anyone but themselves in mind, but they have figured out how to get the christian right so upset that they will get out and vote. Bash some gays, decry the evil of "liberalism", smear our judiciary with false accusations of "judicial activism" and "legislating from the bench"... and so on and so on. They take the fears of these people and convince them to vote. Simple actually.
To bad the large majority of Americans, who don't hold views to far from the center of either side, don't give a fuck enough to get out and vote.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 15:36:55 [Permalink]
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I was amazed that so few people saw Bush I's and Clinton's wars as criminal. I thought for sure they would see that Bush is a criminal.
What candidate used that term in the last presidential election?
No, we keep trading one group of criminals for another. Changing how we vote for them or getting more people to vote for them is not the answer.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 15:44:16 [Permalink]
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But Dude, who could you put in their place that wouldn't have merely their own interests at heart? Sure, you can change the faces, but what really changes? "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."
Currently the conservative are enjoying a political majority. Eventually this will change and things will swing the other way. But it's a cycle that tends toward the middle and it will always remain more or less what it is.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/21/2005 15:46:55 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 00:39:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
And again, I agree with Kil.
If you want government by and for the people, then get out there and work for it -- it won't come to you just because you think it ought to and some quaint piece of antique parchment says that it should. If you think that, the corporations and the fundies will forever own your ass through their elected representitives, not yours.
Two sites:
http://www.moveon.org
&
http://www.democracyforamerica.com
Sign up, join the crowd. You can do as much or as little as you have time for. You can contribute money for the groups, for very specific projects like a billboard or TV ad, or you can contribute time, no cash.
Both organizations make it as easy as adding your name to a mass e-mail to a Congressperson or writing a letter to a paper. You can sponsor a meeting or go to one nearby. You have no excuse. If we don't fight against the massive propaganda campaign the right is producing, we'll be saying goodbye to democracy real soon. War is not Peace. (Newspeak reference in case you don't get the last sentence there.) |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 04/22/2005 00:41:56 |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 05:20:17 [Permalink]
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| I wonder for some of the non U.S. citizen members of this board (read the lucky ones), is the level of cyncism as high in your country regarding politics as it is here? It's damn high here. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 05:28:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bloody_peasant
I wonder for some of the non U.S. citizen members of this board (read the lucky ones), is the level of cyncism as high in your country regarding politics as it is here? It's damn high here.
For national politics, I don't think so.
For European Union politics our cynicism is probably higher than yours.
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 05:41:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Paulos23 wrote:quote:
Thanks for bursting my illusions that the government was salvagable Dave....
Thanks. I needed to know that I wasn't alone in being delusional (you imply you were only at a slightly different level of idealism).
Ya, after the way the last two presidental elections went I knew it was fixed and something fishy was going on. But what you said made me relise that my hope of "it will be better next year", is false because both sides will do it if they think they can get away with it. It is like we have two big giants fighting for ruling the country but they don't care what they do to get there. And once they are there, they have their own agenda oppiset of the lies they told on the campain trail.
You know, making a new party sounds better and better. If I just wasn't too lazy.... |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 06:05:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
If we don't fight against the massive propaganda campaign the right is producing, we'll be saying goodbye to democracy real soon.
I think you're missing the point to this thread, beskeptigal, which is that we haven't lived in a democracy for a long time, and that this is not a problem to be blamed on the right wingers alone. As far as I can tell, Democrats are just as guilty of failing to represent their constituencies as Republicans. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 06:18:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Paulos23
It is like we have two big giants fighting for ruling the country but they don't care what they do to get there.
Were I cynical enough, I would assume that the real people in control are advisors to both the DNC and RNC, and the whole "two-party system" is just a sham to make the sheep citizenry think that they've actually got a say. But I'd need to see hard evidence of that before going that far. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 06:27:45 [Permalink]
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I find the Democrats represent me just fine. I don't expect every elected Democrat in America to agree with me 100% on every issue. I choose Democrats because by and large, they hold the same values I hold. Voting for a Democrat gives us the best chance of having clean air and water, a social safety net, a secular government, and other things I believe strongly in.
I strongly disagree that Republicans and Democrats are equally to blame. Today's Republicans are financed by a huge, wealthy network of media outlets, think tanks, and corporate interests. They have unprecedented access to the public airways and public $$$$ and they utilize both shamelessly. I realize the Democrats receive contributions as well...but get real. Ain't nobody been as corporate a president as Bushie.
Adding to the level of cynicism in this country is not a virtue and it doesn't make things better, you know. 
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 07:41:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Paulos23
It is like we have two big giants fighting for ruling the country but they don't care what they do to get there.
Were I cynical enough, I would assume that the real people in control are advisors to both the DNC and RNC, and the whole "two-party system" is just a sham to make the sheep citizenry think that they've actually got a say. But I'd need to see hard evidence of that before going that far.
If you said that before my morning coffee I would have believed you. Now that I am at work, I am to cynical too.  |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 07:46:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
I find the Democrats represent me just fine. I don't expect every elected Democrat in America to agree with me 100% on every issue. I choose Democrats because by and large, they hold the same values I hold. Voting for a Democrat gives us the best chance of having clean air and water, a social safety net, a secular government, and other things I believe strongly in.
I strongly disagree that Republicans and Democrats are equally to blame. Today's Republicans are financed by a huge, wealthy network of media outlets, think tanks, and corporate interests. They have unprecedented access to the public airways and public $$$$ and they utilize both shamelessly. I realize the Democrats receive contributions as well...but get real. Ain't nobody been as corporate a president as Bushie.
Adding to the level of cynicism in this country is not a virtue and it doesn't make things better, you know.
Granted, Bush is a corporate president. But the democrats will be jumping on board because they have seen it work. What other tactic other then corporate sponsership (and good old fastion ballit stuffing) will get you into power? It worked for the last two elections, didn't it? |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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