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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 04/22/2005 : 08:11:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
I find the Democrats represent me just fine. I don't expect every elected Democrat in America to agree with me 100% on every issue. I choose Democrats because by and large, they hold the same values I hold. Voting for a Democrat gives us the best chance of having clean air and water, a social safety net, a secular government, and other things I believe strongly in.
Again, this isn't the point. The point is that the party members, as a whole, aren't likely to represent their specific constituents, and instead represent the party itself, which isn't Constitutionally bound to the citizens.quote:
Adding to the level of cynicism in this country is not a virtue and it doesn't make things better, you know. 
Well, if I'm adding to the level of cynicism, it's only because my idealism - of just a few days ago - has been dealt a huge body blow. If you'd like to make things better, then rather than complaining about my new-found crappy attitude, you could instead try to show me that it's actually wrong. 'Cause every news report about the partisan bickering on both sides in Congress these days is simply reinforcing it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 08:46:01 [Permalink]
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The following is Renae's opinons and does not reflexs Paulos23's opinons.
Their specific constituents, Dave, are likely to be mainly the party, because the party elects them, provides volunteer support, and donates $$$.
The bickering is out of hand, I agree, but it's mainly the Republicans who have marginalized (mean-spiritedly and unfairly, I might add) the Democrats.
By your logic, I'm not seeing any middle ground.
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You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
| Edited by - Paulos23 on 04/22/2005 11:21:25 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 10:26:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Paulos23
Their specific constituents, Dave, are likely to be mainly the party, because the party elects them, provides volunteer support, and donates $$$.
Which just makes representation based upon district population or geography all the more ridiculous, as aptly demonstrated by Hillary Clinton.quote:
The bickering is out of hand, I agree, but it's mainly the Republicans who have marginalized (mean-spiritedly and unfairly, I might add) the Democrats.
Who's more to blame for the bickering itself is beside the point of what is being bickered about, and more importantly how it is occuring. When Democrats, as a group, promise to choke the Senate to a standstill in reprisal for a Republican "nuclear option," they're certainly not acting in the best interest of John and Jane Smith, who may very well be waiting on legislation to be passed to improve their lives.quote:
By your logic, I'm not seeing any middle ground.
When the two parties involved polarize themselves and willingly escalate the conflict, the middle ground is stretched into a vapor which is both invisible and will support no one. Both parties are the problem, the solution is to elect people who will actually respresent the voters. Frankly, I've always thought of political parties to be a hinderance to making the dream which is the U.S. Constitution a reality, but unfortunately they're written into the damned document. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 12:59:16 [Permalink]
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Umm, Dave- could you point to to exactly where political parties are "written into" the Constitution? I can't seem to find it, and IIRC, at least some of the framers were quite leery of the dangers of "faction", as the proto-parties of the day were called.
Second, where exactly do you find a "middle ground" with such authoritarian extremists as have taken over the Republican party? Devotion to finding a "middle ground" and "triangulation" don't seem to have accomplished much save to push the "middle" farther and farther toward quasi-fascist lunacy.
It's like Zeno's paradox. Move half of the distance between freedom and tyranny. Then move half of the remaining distance, and so on. Where do you ultimately end up?
Negotiation and compromise only work between people who are capable of being satisfied with an imperfect but workable solution to a problem- that is, people who are capable of rational problem-solving. The theocrat-wannabees don't have a track record of such behavior. All that trying to compromise with them gets you is still more demands. The saner elements of the Republican party have spent the last couple of decades sucking up to radical extremists for the sake of power, and they're starting to discover that when you make a deal with the Devil, he always comes looking to collect, as von Schleicher and von Papen could have told them.
You cannot be "reasonable" with people whose beliefs and demands are unreasonable.
There really is a point at which attempting to be "bipartisan" and "reasonable" is nothing more than abject surrender. As far as I'm concerned, any Vichy Dem who rolls over for the Jeezo-bullies deserves the collaboratrice's dose- paraded through the streets with their head shaved. |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 13:28:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
Umm, Dave- could you point to to exactly where political parties are "written into" the Constitution? I can't seem to find it...
And re-reading the thing, neither can I. I could have sworn I read something about how majority/minority parties should be handled within Congress. Must have been while reading something else, and my brain mis-fired.
But this is good. It's brightened my spirits. We can eliminate the damn things. Thanks, ktesibios.quote:
Second, where exactly do you find a "middle ground" with such authoritarian extremists as have taken over the Republican party?
I don't. What part of "the middle ground is stretched into a vapor which is both invisible and will support no one" did you misread? While I agree with what you've written about "unreasonable people," I'm not sure the Democrats are any more reasonable than the Republicans, now that they've decided the best way to proceed with their goals is through the threat of shutting down the Senate. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 15:24:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by bloody_peasant
I wonder for some of the non U.S. citizen members of this board (read the lucky ones), is the level of cynicism as high in your country regarding politics as it is here? It's damn high here.
For national politics, I don't think so.
For European Union politics our cynicism is probably higher than yours.
For national politics, no.
For European Union... I'm a bit cynical but not as much as Starman. I have respect for the idea behind the union, but sometimes the prestige and bickering between counties get too much. Sweden is paying more per capita than any other country to the Union, but on the other hand, being a country of only 9 million citizens we also have more relative influence per capita.
Regarding US politics... I think you have been seriously screwed over. I consider America a sinking ship, looking more and more like a Banana-republic for each day. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 18:23:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
But Dude, who could you put in their place that wouldn't have merely their own interests at heart? Sure, you can change the faces, but what really changes? "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."
Nader
Ross Perot
And a few other names maybe. There are people out there who would do the job, do it well, and not place their personal interests or the interests of special interests above the greater interest of the country.
To bad that the DNC/RNC totally control who gets to be president. If Ross Perot had stayed in the race in '88, the influence of the DNC/RNC might not be what it is today. Ross would probably have been president if he had stayed in that election, instead of dropping out and then comming back in.
If Nader could raise $300M he might stand a shot at getting elected.
There are people out there, they just have little chance in the current climate of domination by the two parties.
It's an ugly reality, but the office of president is up for the highest bidder, and it will remain so until we get some real campaign finance reform and eliminate the 527's that beskeptigal likes. Moveon.org, the NRA 527, etc... all of them need to go. Either that or the money needs to be limited to the same single person contribution limit that is in place for the actual campaigns.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 19:33:10 [Permalink]
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Dave, I just don't agree that the DNC and the RNC don't represent their constituents. I think they do, at times better than others.
It's the Republican and Democratic parties that drive the political engine in America. They organize, fund, create policies and platforms, write letters, doorbell, lobby, volunteer, etc. And they do all this, I might add, while others too cynical, apathetic, or lazy apparently aren't doing much at all.
I've read that roughly a third of Americans are Democrats, a third Republicans, and a third independent/libertarian/green/whatever else. That % fluctuates some, I think, but this was the last number I remember reading. At times the DNC and RNC are unfocused and out of touch, but I don't think that's *generally* the case.
If your point is that the partisan bickering doesn't serve democracy itself well, or doesn't serve America well, then I would definitely agree. And I do agree that money plays far too great a role in shaping public policy.
Ross Perot was a nutjob, and Nader is out of touch. Neither is likely to be elected to anything of significance, as is the case with most non-big-party candidates. It would take a remarkable, strong leader to make it as an independent.
They say democracy is a terrible system of government, but it's better than any other system. Though fascism is more efficient... |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 21:00:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Dave, I just don't agree that the DNC and the RNC don't represent their constituents. I think they do, at times better than others.
Well, with any sort of respresentative, he/she/it will do its job well at times and badly at others. My problem is that I'm seeing, more and more, individual representatives of particular places disregarding the constituents who elected them in favor of ad hoc national governing bodies (the DNC and RNC) which cannot themselves be sanctioned by the government for their legal actions without violating the First Amendment.
For example, there's a Senator who recently announced that he wouldn't vote against his party when it comes to John Bolton. Such a statement says, "I don't give a damn if 99% of the actual voters who elected me think Bolton is scum, the RNC is calling the shots." Whether the 99% figure is true or not is, of course, beside the point.
And as to the latter part of what I said above, if the DNC "fails" in its mission to its "constituents," what can they do? They can't vote the DNC "out" of anything. The RNC is - largely - not an option, and independent candidates/parties are a crapshoot. So the left-of-center voters are stuck with hoping the DNC will do a better job next time.
If, on the other hand, the voters controlled who was in office, and he/she was truly answerable, then penalties for a poor job from your representatives is possible.quote:
It's the Republican and Democratic parties that drive the political engine in America. They organize, fund, create policies and platforms, write letters, doorbell, lobby, volunteer, etc. And they do all this, I might add, while others too cynical, apathetic, or lazy apparently aren't doing much at all.
No, they do it because people are too cynical, apathetic or lazy to actually evaluate the individual candidate's strengths and weaknesses. The DNC and RNC exist so that a person can say, for example, "well, I agree with most of the DNC's platform, and I can't stand the RNC's, so I'll just vote Democrat down the board."
It is exactly that sort of laziness which is destroying the dream, and the national parties encourage it.
And for the record, this past November I voted for Kerry in an attempt to get rid of Bush, but several of my other votes on that ballot probably would have made died-in-the-wool liberals puke.quote:
At times the DNC and RNC are unfocused and out of touch, but I don't think that's *generally* the case.
It's not a matter of them being "out of touch," it's a question of them being unanswerable for their actions and of them enabling the ignorance of their constituents.quote:
If your point is that the partisan bickering doesn't serve democracy itself well, or doesn't serve America well, then I would definitely agree.
No, it's the level to which the power-plays are taken that I object to. The Democrats threatening to shut down the Senate out of spite is a big "fuck you" to America as a whole. 'Cause if it happens, Democratic voters are quickly going to find out just how much it sucks in comparison to a couple of conservative "activist" judges being appointed. It will represent a tremendous failure of those Democratic Senators to serve their constituents, a failure of the DNC to serve its constituents, a failure of the Republicans to serve their constituents, a failure of the Senate, and perhaps even a failure of the government as a whole.
After all, the House of Representatives could impeach the Democratic Senator trouble-makers (and the Republican ones, too, for that matter). Now that would be a "nuclear option."
[Edited to change an 'as' to an 'and' - Dave W.] |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 21:47:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
It's not a matter of them being "out of touch," it's a question of them being unanswerable for their actions and of them enabling the ignorance of their constituents.
I agree. The number of people that vote on a single issue is crazy. The republicans have found their voting block and they can manipulate them so so so easily... Just say, "Ban gay marraige!", and you win votes. And so on with a whole host of issues.
It's fucking pathetic to see people vote so soundly against their own long term interests just because they have been led to believe that a politician has "values" in common with them. I'm not a strict democrat, but I almost always vote for a democratic candidate these days. Simply because the republicans are so far away from actually being republicans that it makes me ill. It boggles my mind everytime I try to understand how so many people actually vote for them and support them.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2005 : 06:49:29 [Permalink]
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I am a political junkie and a diehard Democrat, and I have no idea what the DNC's stand is on *anything.* I vaguely remember Howard Dean being appointed as the head, and that's all I know about them. So I am baffled as to why you think the DNC is calling the shots.
Democrats cross party lines all the time, and it's then that I'm angry with them--not when they follow general Democratic principles. I was angry at the Dems who voted in favor of the bankruptcy bill (Barak Obama, wherefore art thou now?). I was disappointed in Cinton's support of NAFTA, of many Democrats' support of the Iraq war--though the Iraq votes are so highly charged, few had the cajones to vote their conscience.
The Democrats, IMO, communicate their positions badly. Kerry was a fine example--a good man with a good voting record who could not convey what he stood for. But we do stand for things, and we have every right to adhere to those principles. In fact, we have a moral obligation to stand for them. If you disagree with any of those principles, you have many courses of action (letters, volunteerism, etc.) Many in this thread, however, are choosing the apathy-cynicism course of action, which contributes little and changes even less.
As for the Dems shutting down the Senate: if they do, good for them. They have been bullied, lied to, and shafted repeatedly by the Republicans. They're finally fighting back, and God help us if they don't and we get more right wing nut jobs in the courts or even on the Supreme Court.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2005 : 09:12:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Renea:
Many in this thread, however, are choosing the apathy-cynicism course of action, which contributes little and changes even less.
Oh contraire. What seems to be being advocated is electing representatives that are more concerned with their constituency than the party's line. Like you, the democratetic party comes closest for me in ideology. What is being said is that support for the goals of the DNC, for example, has taken precedent when casting votes in congress. If the result of a successful party line vote is that it sucks for those who your representative has pledged to represent, than the priorities are all wrong.
And if the people who vote for these persons understood the power they have to change that, by voting those who do not take them into first consideration out of office, a change would happen. A few times of doing that and the message will be delivered. The way to take the power back to the people is for the people to understand that they have the power in the first place.
The Democratic Party is a coalition party. There will always be winners and losers in the party. But the battle for the parties' heart begins at the voting booth. Not in the board-rooms of the DNC.
And sure, there should be party leadership. But even they should be forced to answer to us and not to some lobby or large financial contributor. They work for us.
And the only way to get the party back may have to be a kind of tough love. Failure to represent us and our representatives should be forced to look for other work.
You know why so many people believe both parties are the same? Because they are. We democrats may be more comfortable with our party in general, but all in all, we have been removed from the loop. Polling is for learning proper sound bites. After we have been appeased because our politicians have said the right things to get elected and even though we may agree of some of the things the party stands for, we are basically out of consideration until they need the poll numbers again.
I just can't say this enough. The power belongs to us. If we give that power away through complacency or laziness or some rationalization that the system of politics in America is so set that we really can't do anything about it, we loose.
Apathy and cynicism is not what is being promoted here. Not by me anyhow.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2005 : 10:10:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
So I am baffled as to why you think the DNC is calling the shots.
The DNC/RNC set policy for their respective parties.
The DNC/RNC have money, mostly given by lobbyists and various special interests, and if you don't follow the party line, you get cut off. The party can choose to support another candidate the next time you are up for election.
The DNC/RNC are spin-media outlets in their own right. They publish a statement or release a couple of soundbites and they are soon being played on the evening news and the cable news channels. Then, they become the topic of discussion for the punditry of both sides.
The current system, as used by both DNC and RNC leads us into situations like we have now. The complete erosion of seperation of powers. Bush just rubberstamps anything that comes out of congress, period. Congress just (with one startling exception, Bolton, and they started out ready to rubberstamp him) rubberstamps any and all nominees that Bush puts up. The line between the executive and legislative branch is totally gone at the moment, and it is a direct result of the actions of the RNC. If the DNC owned congress and the pres it would be just the same.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2005 : 12:36:04 [Permalink]
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The DNC doesn't set policy; it creates a platform. The DNC platform committee presented the 2004 platform for approval at the Democratic National Convention. Conventioneers are delegates from their local areas.
I caucused for Edwards this year. I went to a big room with lots and lots of other Democrats. I said what I needed to say about Edwards; we chose our delegates based on the proportion of each of us who represented each candidate. My precinct had something like 2 Kerry delegates, one Edwards, one Clark, and 2 Dean. Those delegates went on to the next level (sorry; I don't remember the levels.) Ultimately, delegates are chosen to go to the Democratic National Convention, where they vote on the platform.
The Washington State Democrats have a platform written by Democrats who choose to get involved. Local districts and precincts often write platforms, too.
The DNC platform is written by 157 Democrats, allocated based on population and voting strength and 25 appointed members (per the DNC website.) Anyone can submit testimony to the platform committe; a few even offer testimony to the committee. I won't bore you with more technical details, but it sounds like a democratic (small 'd') process to me.
So, someone explain to me how the DNC doesn't represent its constituents. It IS its constituents.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2005 : 13:02:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
If we don't fight against the massive propaganda campaign the right is producing, we'll be saying goodbye to democracy real soon.
I think you're missing the point to this thread, beskeptigal, which is that we haven't lived in a democracy for a long time, and that this is not a problem to be blamed on the right wingers alone. As far as I can tell, Democrats are just as guilty of failing to represent their constituencies as Republicans.
I totally agree. My point was just to encourage doing something about it. I was one of the very disappointed Democrats both in 2000 and 2004 with my own party. I have been trying to do something other than recognize the obvious. I have hope that Moveon could be a force for change. Individuals have power through the Internet that can rival corporate influence if we get individuals to participate. |
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