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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 10/01/2001 : 23:57:58
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This is from a list I'm on, with the request to write a letter to the editor of USA TODAY about it. editor@usatoday.com
I trust the person who posted this editorial even though I haven't checked it out myself.
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09/30/2001
God, country gain fragile new toehold
By Kathleen Parker
One can't help notice the silence of atheists these days. Suddenly "God" is everywhere, as ubiquitous as American flags, spreading as Dan Rather said in a spasm of simile-rapture to describe rumors following the Sept. 11 attacks "like mildew in a damp basement."
War has that effect. There are no atheists in foxholes, we've always known. There were none in the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, we can guess. And now there are none anywhere to be found. America today is about God and country, but then it always has been. We just lost track.
We lost track when we evicted God from our public institutions and when we stopped honoring our nation with the songs and rituals that defined American childhood until a few decades ago. We of a certain age remember beginning each school day by pledging allegiance to the flag, singing My Country, 'Tis of Thee and, finally, reciting The Lord's Prayer.
We twitched and fidgeted because we were children. We mouthed words we couldn't pronounce and didn't understand. For years I thought we were "pegging legions" to "Publix for witches," but no matter. We were united in song and prayer and a shared, if immature, understanding
that we were a whole dedicated to a common purpose.
That unity of purpose has been resurrected through an unspeakable tragedy and expressed in the language of God and country such as we've not heard in my adult lifetime. Since terrorists brought down the twin towers and part of the Pentagon, we've repeatedly witnessed America's leaders praying,singing, pledging and asking the nation's citizens to join them.
Which is to say, our children must be awfully confused. Reared and educated in godless institutions that also scarcely acknowledge the importance of patriotism watching adults sing songs they've never
learned they must wonder "wassup." It's as though America's adults belong to a secret society to which their children have never been exposed.
These thoughts have struck me over and over, beginning with the memorial service at the National Cathedral. As the audience sang The Battle Hymn of the Republic joined by yours truly back home in the family room (confess: you did it, too) it occurred to me that my son doesn't even know the words.
He and most other American children don't know that song or a half-dozen other patriotic tunes that are imprinted on older Americans' brains for the simple reason that hardly anyone sings them anymore.
Patriotism, meanwhile, is as unfamiliar as the alien notions that inform the Taliban.
As with much of what's wrong with America, my (boomer) generation gets the credit. No one needs a rehash of that particular lesson. But thanks to our own World War II parents, we at least have a heritage to
return to. We know the words when we need them; our children don't. We've been so overzealously protective of newcomers to and renegades from our traditional heritage and fearful of offending anyone hungry for
attention that we've failed to pass on the very values that made us who and what we are.
"And what values might those be?" asks the cynic. We're a diverse, multicultural nation. Different values for different folks. Hey, it's all relative. Whatever.
The values are those you've heard over and over since Sept. 11. They're the values that prompted Americans to buy up every American
flag in the country, to clog Manhattan's streets looking for some way to help, to stand in line for hours to donate blood, to crowd churches and synagogues and other houses of worship to pray.
A friend told me she was trying to figure out what recent events meant to her. After some deliberation, she hit on a simple answer. "I figured it out, and it's really very succinct," she said. "I believe in God and I believe
in my country."
From the beginning of American time, the two have been entwined and inseparable. Today, we seem to have no trouble seeing how
necessary the one is to the other. By whatever name you call God yes, including Allah there's no extracting Him from our moments of greatest valor and our times of deepest despair.
Faith in God and devotion to country are values, however, that do not evolve from nothing. Both require nourishment and a continuity of commitment passed from one generation to the next. Our parents, most
of whom had tasted war and paid the dues of freedom, gave us these values to which we now so readily return. We have a duty to do the same for our own children.
I don't know how we reconcile the legal separation of church and state required by law with the marriage of God and country demanded by our national psyche, but I'm sure we can figure out something.
If we're to win this war sure to last into our children's futures we have to reweave the rituals of God and country into our institutions. We can't expect children to understand and someday defend a heritage that they have never been given.
Kathleen Parker is a syndicated columnist for Tribune Media Services and a member of USA TODAY's board of contributors.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art.
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 10/02/2001 : 00:09:35 [Permalink]
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Snake, I'm drafting a response to this. She's too blind to see the forest. "Let's fight fundamentanlism with fundamentanlism." Dangerous thinking.
Lissa
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 00:37:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake, I'm drafting a response to this. She's too blind to see the forest. "Let's fight fundamentanlism with fundamentanlism." Dangerous thinking.
Yes, Just as bad, if not worse then what those ass holes did to New York.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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theatheistknight
New Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 02:25:52 [Permalink]
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After reading that, I thought I was going to puke.
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Friedrich Nietzsche |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 05:19:24 [Permalink]
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theatheistknight, move over!
quote:
There were none in the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, we can guess.
This is bullshit and about where I stopped reading...let me guess, it gets worse?
The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet.
Edited by - James on 10/02/2001 05:21:26 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 06:28:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
This is from a list I'm on, with the request to write a letter to the editor of USA TODAY about it. editor@usatoday.com
I trust the person who posted this editorial even though I haven't checked it out myself.
---------
09/30/2001
God, country gain fragile new toehold
By Kathleen Parker
One can't help notice the silence of atheists these days. Suddenly "God" is everywhere, as ubiquitous as American flags, spreading as Dan Rather said in a spasm of simile-rapture to describe rumors following the Sept. 11 attacks "like mildew in a damp basement."
War has that effect. There are no atheists in foxholes, we've always known. There were none in the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, we can guess. And now there are none anywhere to be found. America today is about God and country, but then it always has been. We just lost track.
We lost track when we evicted God from our public institutions and when we stopped honoring our nation with the songs and rituals that defined American childhood until a few decades ago. We of a certain age remember beginning each school day by pledging allegiance to the flag, singing My Country, 'Tis of Thee and, finally, reciting The Lord's Prayer.
We twitched and fidgeted because we were children. We mouthed words we couldn't pronounce and didn't understand. For years I thought we were "pegging legions" to "Publix for witches," but no matter. We were united in song and prayer and a shared, if immature, understanding
that we were a whole dedicated to a common purpose.
That unity of purpose has been resurrected through an unspeakable tragedy and expressed in the language of God and country such as we've not heard in my adult lifetime. Since terrorists brought down the twin towers and part of the Pentagon, we've repeatedly witnessed America's leaders praying,singing, pledging and asking the nation's citizens to join them.
Which is to say, our children must be awfully confused. Reared and educated in godless institutions that also scarcely acknowledge the importance of patriotism watching adults sing songs they've never
learned they must wonder "wassup." It's as though America's adults belong to a secret society to which their children have never been exposed.
These thoughts have struck me over and over, beginning with the memorial service at the National Cathedral. As the audience sang The Battle Hymn of the Republic joined by yours truly back home in the family room (confess: you did it, too) it occurred to me that my son doesn't even know the words.
He and most other American children don't know that song or a half-dozen other patriotic tunes that are imprinted on older Americans' brains for the simple reason that hardly anyone sings them anymore.
Patriotism, meanwhile, is as unfamiliar as the alien notions that inform the Taliban.
As with much of what's wrong with America, my (boomer) generation gets the credit. No one needs a rehash of that particular lesson. But thanks to our own World War II parents, we at least have a heritage to
return to. We know the words when we need them; our children don't. We've been so overzealously protective of newcomers to and renegades from our traditional heritage and fearful of offending anyone hungry for
attention that we've failed to pass on the very values that made us who and what we are.
"And what values might those be?" asks the cynic. We're a diverse, multicultural nation. Different values for different folks. Hey, it's all relative. Whatever.
The values are those you've heard over and over since Sept. 11. They're the values that prompted Americans to buy up every American
flag in the country, to clog Manhattan's streets looking for some way to help, to stand in line for hours to donate blood, to crowd churches and synagogues and other houses of worship to pray.
A friend told me she was trying to figure out what recent events meant to her. After some deliberation, she hit on a simple answer. "I figured it out, and it's really very succinct," she said. "I believe in God and I believe
in my country."
From the beginning of American time, the two have been entwined and inseparable. Today, we seem to have no trouble seeing how
necessary the one is to the other. By whatever name you call God yes, including Allah there's no extracting Him from our moments of greatest valor and our times of deepest despair.
Faith in God and devotion to country are values, however, that do not evolve from nothing. Both require nourishment and a continuity of commitment passed from one generation to the next. Our parents, most
of whom had tasted war and paid the dues of freedom, gave us these values to which we now so readily return. We have a duty to do the same for our own children.
I don't know how we reconcile the legal separation of church and state required by law with the marriage of God and country demanded by our national psyche, but I'm sure we can figure out something.
If we're to win this war sure to last into our children's futures we have to reweave the rituals of God and country into our institutions. We can't expect children to understand and someday defend a heritage that they have never been given.
Kathleen Parker is a syndicated columnist for Tribune Media Services and a member of USA TODAY's board of contributors.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art.
I have written a letter condemning this article to the editor. I find it interesting that her article seemed to indicate that Judeo-Christianity was the only correct belief. All other religions and atheists not invited. Too bad they (Judeo-Christians) are outnumbered worldwide.
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 06:37:16 [Permalink]
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Snake, I just checked at usatoday.com, and, unfortunetly, it's true. This opinionated rant was published yesterday. Go here to double check on it. I just hope they didn't have enough room in the paper. IMO, this person is almost as bad as Falwell, Ham and the like.
The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 07:10:24 [Permalink]
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Well, the article checks out. She apparently writes a special column just for USAToday. If you want to get to her directly, her home paper is the Orlando Sentinel: kparker@orlandosentinel.com. I'll let you guys handle the USAToday editor, I'm angry at Parker for being such a lousy and irresponsible journalist.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 07:56:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well, the article checks out. She apparently writes a special column just for USAToday. If you want to get to her directly, her home paper is the Orlando Sentinel: kparker@orlandosentinel.com. I'll let you guys handle the USAToday editor, I'm angry at Parker for being such a lousy and irresponsible journalist.
Parker and USA Today both are ignorant at best. As to her comments regarding atheists and foxholes, I know of at least two Marines, both Vietnam vets, who were atheists when they went there, who were atheists while they were there, and who are still atheists to this day. Their comments, should anyone choose to use them, "I never saw god or angels while I was there and never saw a need to believe in something that was so careless of its creations."
Well, I'm off to write a letter to both Ms. Parker and USA Today.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." ~Blaise Pascal |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 09:22:03 [Permalink]
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A response:
Ms Parker,
Few things that theists and Christians say or print actually offend me. Well, offend me you did. It was a fundamental fanatic that ordered the bombing of the World Trade Center. As for there being no atheists present when the act of terror occured, I think you should refer to both Carl Sagan, in his battle against a rare blood disease and Arthur C. Clarkes comments regarding their atheism/agnosticism during times of trial. When faced with terrible misfortune in their lives most atheists I know do not abandon their skepticism regarding a diety. The concept of a diety to them is as ridiculous as believing in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Neither of these entities are provable, yet we inflict their reality upon our children.
Your nation of god belief was borne of the desire to escape religious persecution resulting from the Malleus Malificarum and the resultant Inquisition. I would suggest that in future before making such an erroneous claim that you might read Common Sense by Thomas Paine, who was not an atheist as referred to by one of our presidents, but was rather a theist.
Let's discuss Christian values for a moment. These are the values that declare a fully formed human in the spermatazoa. These are the values that would rather inflict suffering upon two individuals rather than let a woman decide the best possible course for her life. These are the values that would rather keep a populace ignorant of science and reason and by so doing promotes suffering. These are the values that upheld slavery in this country and around the world. These are the values that promote bigotry, if you are different, believe differently then you are somehow less than I.
Atheists, agnostics, free thinkers, and secular humanitarians choose to help their fellow humans, not because threat from some god thing in the sky, but rather because they trully care about their fellow humans. Not all Christians help because of this threat of eternal damnation, but there are those who do only because they are afraid of the non-existant realm of hell.
I especially found your comments regarding no atheists in foxholes hilarious. Here's why, from an atheist Marine. Foxes run to ground, where else would the Christian hide in the face of the onslaught of war. Marines fight. I've known at least two atheist Marines who are Vietnam Veterans. They do not use 'foxholes', the Marines do not use 'foxholes' they fight from 'fighting holes'. Those atheists that I know in Vietnam, both have Purple Hearts, both came back horribly altered by their experiences in Vietnam. Yet, neither man made the choice to abondon their skepticism regarding religious faith, both remained atheists while in country. Though I must point out that there may be more atheists Marines that I know, we never much discussed religion.
Ms. Parker, your comments regarding religion are at best a regurgitation of what Evangelical Fundamentalists with much the same mindset as the Taliban (should they ever gain any form of power in this country), regarding ruling over others, would say, at worst they ignore the facts of our 'Founding Fathers' being primarily Deists and not Christians and seem to present a complete misrepresentation of historical fact or an outright knowing lie. Study history beyond what they teach in the classroom. I would also suggest for further enlightenment regarding the foundation of this country that you read the correspondence written prior to the signing of the Treaty with Tripoli after the routing of the Barbary Pirates. You might notice, that it is consistently affirmed that this is not a country founded upon the right of the Christian god, this is not a Christian nation.
Where was I when the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were attacked and afterwords? I was glued to my TV staring in horror and disbelief at the scene playing out before my eyes. I watched the collapse of the towers, and worried about EMS crews running into the building and worried about those who were trapped in the upper levels, much the same as you, I would suppose. You see, the atheists, agnostics, free thinkers, and secular humanitarians were doing whatever it was they were trained to do in response to an emergency without the necessity of declaring their atheism, etc. We were standing in line to give blood, but not saying it was our duty as Christians to give blood, rather it was our duty to our fellow humans to relieve suffering. We gathered, though we did not pray. We worried about the backlash against the Muslim community, to whom we know a debt of history is owed for preserving the writings of Aristotle, Ptolemy, etc., while the forebears of the Christian religion would have burned those writings as heresy, despite their inability to read. The Muslim community preserved the Greek study of the Natural Sciences, the studies that have helped to give us the comfortable life we know today. We discussed a reasoned response to the attacks, rather than a kneejerk reaction. We supported those of the Muslim communities in our neighborhoods and their rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
We did not go out and attack Sikhs because they are Middle Eastern descent. We, most of us, know that the Sikhs are being killed by both Muslim and Hinidi alike. We did not go out and immediately retaliate against those who have been in our communities. We did not go out and draws lines based on external differences and differences of belief. We instead, worried about those who are going to be viewed as different. We continued to worry about the unfair imprisonment of Dr. Younis Shaik on charges of Blasphemy in Pakistan. We continued to lobby for his release and against his execution.
Why must Americans go out and buy a flag. What has that to do with anything? I didn't need to go purchase a flag, why you ask? I already own one and have for years. I love my country, I dedicated a portion of my youth to my country, I would again put on a uniform to serve my country, should they need me. I don't need a false belief in a god to tell me this, I need my understanding of my civic duty to my fellow humans.
Semper Fidelis,
Trish Gaskins
Former US Marine
What think you? (I'm being really weird today - ok!)
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." ~Blaise Pascal |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 10:30:59 [Permalink]
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About to be sent to Kathleen Parker's email:
I suppose you think you are representing the majority opinion when you write things like this. I don't suppose it seems silly to claim things about atheists that you know cannot be universally true, perhaps because you fear no 'atheist backlash.' As appalled as I am at your feeble attempt at emotional journalism, I have neither the time nor the inclination to whip up an atheist literary lynch mob to bombard the news media with condemnation. I will, however, tell you what I think.
You purport that atheists are 'silent' these days. May I ask what you expect to hear from atheists individually or as a whole that would unequivocally announce, "Yes, we are atheists, and yes, we are publicly discussing the events of 9-11-01 in such a way that the theist citizenry will know we are atheists"? Perhaps you missed the PBS telethon where we all got on stage (all 17 of us) and sang "Nobody/nothing bless America." You must know that the atheists-foxhole bit is terribly old hat. Rest assured, no atheists were converted in the making of this tragedy. We have the same emotions as believers, we donate money and blood in equal proportions and we do whatever we can to comfort those near us who lost the most. What we don't do is find logic in emotional appeals to Falwell's and Robertson's deity to protect us now that we 'realize' why it didn't protect us in the first place.
Frankly, I am shocked that you so lack critical thinking skills in your blind support of prayer and God-reverance in public schools. Surely you don't propose that we all recite your preferred version of the Lord's Prayer instead of my Great Aunt Carrie's? Maybe our kids should pray to Mecca five times a day as well? The point is, the degree of surety you might have in your beliefs is not going to make anyone else as happy as you are. Why is the school such an important spiritual medium anyway? Does the godless science really need immediate counteraction that can't be given at home or at church?
Emotional scars such as those incurred by US citizens recently do not heal easily. The most good we can do as a nation is to punish those responsible and take the necessary steps to protect ourselves militarily and diplomatically. We must, however, do so as rational humans, rather than as crusaders.
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 10:43:23 [Permalink]
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Nice work, Trish. As you can see, I lack the lexicographic eloquence and verbosity that you possess. I only hope Parker has enough sense to understand.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 12:07:50 [Permalink]
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To both of you, nice work!
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 12:26:59 [Permalink]
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Good work, Trish
At the risk of infuriating everyone even more, this too-cute message has been making the rounds everywhere lately:
quote:
NOW that the President has called us to prayer
NOW that Congress has called us to prayer...
NOW that our Governor has called us to prayer...
NOW that the city Mayor has called us to prayer....
NOW that the "liberal" media and most other branches of our American society have called us to prayer...
AND NOW that our churches are assembling in special prayer....
Is it okay to pray in our schools now....??
I first saw it in the form of a printout in my in-box at work. It was signed by a local RN who is also a field grade officer in the Army Reserve.
It shouldn't surprise us that the thumper-fundy element has managed to exploit the terror attacks. Given their distrust of the federal government and their apparent disregard for consistency, they could just as easily switch sides and turn against the terrorist war if things go badly, or if success doesn't seem to suit their purposes. I've already heard some grumbling from local religious right types that Bush has sold them out by not putting greater emphasis on the need for religious "revival" as a social response to the terrorist threat.
Gawd and the bible outweigh any other consideration for them. They have an opportunity here to gain power, and they will do whatever it takes, including the redefinition of terms like "patriotism" as needed.
Abducting UFOs and conspiring against conspiracy theorists since 1980. |
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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 13:32:34 [Permalink]
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More from the fundy front:
I just heard Pat Robertson say, during his 700 Club broadcast, that the United States would face the "wrath of God" if it pressures Israel to hand East Jerusalem over to the Palestinians. The recovery of East Jerusalem, taken by Israel in the 1967 war, is a major objective of the Palestinian Authority and a major sticking point in the peace process. Robertson's tone was almost hysterical; he declared that "all prophecy is against it!" Presumably, any Isaeli government that agreed to the concession would also be targeted for divine retribution. This sounds like a perfect setup for fundies to excuse, and thereby to exploit, future terrorist attacks.
Bush is probably going to make a deal of some kind with the Palestinians in the terror war. East Jerusalem would be a highly productive concession, and one that would be easy to make in rational terms, especially since the only objections to it are religious in nature. OTOH, Bush is obviously very sensitive to the religious right. The political cost of antagonizing them with a Jerusalem deal will have to be weighed, introducing yet another irrational consideration into anti-terrorism policy.
Sorry I can't find a link yet, but the "wrath of god" quotes will probably show up at Robertson's website: http://www.cbn.com
Fox radio has been broadcasting audio of Robertson's remarks, but it hasn't shown up on their site yet, either.
Abducting UFOs and conspiring against conspiracy theorists since 1980. |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 14:27:59 [Permalink]
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| Ms. Kathleen Parker and the USA Today editorial staff, Greetings. This is a brief response in to your guest editorial regarding God and country in the Sept. 30th edition of USA Today [ http://www.usatoday.com/news/comment/2001-10-01-ncguest1.htm ]. I'd like to correct a few apparent misconceptions on the state and nature of our great nation. Remarking on the alleged absence of atheists of late, you claim that there are "none anywhere to be found." I assure you we are very much alive and well save for the untold hundreds of us that died in the September 11 attacks. Atheists do indeed exist in foxholes, I've known several during my time in uniform and I fully expect you'll hear from a few yourself. Moreover, the victims of this attack were a representative sampling of our national and global business community, and if you would care to look up the data on these demographics, you may be quite surprised to find how very many unbelievers are to be found. Regarding our recent silence, it is clear that most of us have toned down our public rhetoric because we realize that now more than ever it will fall on deaf ears, as the nation becomes swept up in the religious fervor mysteriously accompanies a resurgence of patriotic feeling. However, a vocal minority of us are complaining loudly and often about the new wave of violations of church/state separation being foisted upon America's citizenry, such as George Bush's repeated invocation of his lord Jesus and the "God bless America" signs popping up on school signs and government buildings throughout the nation. Whether vocal or not, we are all upset to find that our children suddenly find themselves in an even more hostile environment, surrounded by many students and teachers who treat them (along with all those who do not follow the Christian God endorsed by President Bush) as outcasts, or worse, as targets. You and all those who encourage "[reweaving] the rituals of God
into our institutions" are encouraging this environment of religious bigotry. Continue to do this, and you certainly should not expect us to keep silent. Already, some of the most prominent atheist organizations are rallying against your campaign of intolerance, expect many more to follow. As to atheist values, you should know that we also bought flags, donated blood, and clogged Manhattan to help. Of course, we did not "crowd churches and synagogues and other houses of worship to pray" but that is only because we believe that hands folded in prayer are as good as idle in a time of need.
Edited by - tergiversant on 10/02/2001 14:34:35 |
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