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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2005 : 18:33:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
The author of this Panda's Thumb item doesn't warn a person soon enough: before clicking that link, turn your irony meters off to save their circuitry.
The bit from a post by the Great White Wonder sums it up quite nicely
quote:
Dembski?s ideas and the ideas of his fellow peddlers have been debunked a thousand times over. But someone keeps pasting the script back together again.
The anit-evolution arguments have not changed in 146 years. We truly need an age of reason. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2005 : 05:05:33 [Permalink]
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| We are in an age of reason. Creationists just haven't realized that yet. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2005 : 05:40:43 [Permalink]
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Well bless my soul and damn my eyes, but here's a cracking good spoof:
quote:
Kansas Outlaws Dinosaur-Themed Toys, Cartoons
"Barney Ban" Will Protect Children, Says State Attorney General Kline. Legislative Leaders' Goal: "Healing Wounds of Darwinism"
May 13, 2005
Satire by David Albrecht
TOPEKA, KS - Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline stunned many Kansans yesterday by announcing that books, toys and cartoons depicting or featuring dinosaurs were now illegal across the state.
Kline, no stranger to controversy on such hot-button issues as abortion and gun control, defended the actions of the Kansas Legislature, which in a special late-night session overrode Democratic Governor Kathleen Sebelius' veto of the Childrens' Defense & Truth in Science Act.
"The people of the Sunflower State understand rock-bottom honesty," he said. "They know that this is not some sort of anti-science conspiracy. We're not moving backwards. We simply believe that this is the best way possible to heal the partisan wounds that decades of rule by the secular left have inflicted on this state."
But y'know, it's a sad commentary on the state of public education that this could concivably, in some form or other, be proposed, and maybe already has been. The proposal would not make it far before being shot down, but just the thought that it could be put forth is discouraging.
Or not  : fantastical creationist nonsense is always good for at least a giggle and more often a good, hearty laugh.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2005 : 07:15:28 [Permalink]
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One Longsome Argument.
quote:
By any objective measure, the evolution of species ranks among the most successful scientific theories ever. So why is the message not getting through?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2005 : 09:19:33 [Permalink]
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Kansas evolution hearings end.
quote:
TOPEKA, Kan. - John Calvert praised Pedro Irigonegaray for his spirited defense of evolution after the two tangled last week in public hearings before State Board of Education members.
But on Thursday, Calvert refused to shake his adversary's hand after Irigonegaray finished a two-hour denunciation of intelligent design, its advocates and conservative board members.
Calvert, a retired Lake Quivira attorney who organized the case against evolutionary theory, accused Irigonegaray and his fellow evolution defenders of character assassination as the hearings came to a close.
"I don't think this strategy deserves a handshake," said Calvert, who also helped found the intelligent design network.
quote:
"I believe your behavior here was abusive," board member Connie Morris, of St. Francis, told Irigonegaray on Thursday. "I want you to know I forgive you."
I'm sure Mr. Irigonegary must be relieved that he has been forgiven.
The lunatics are running the asylum…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2005 : 11:08:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Kansas evolution hearings end.
quote:
TOPEKA, Kan. - John Calvert praised Pedro Irigonegaray for his spirited defense of evolution after the two tangled last week in public hearings before State Board of Education members.
But on Thursday, Calvert refused to shake his adversary's hand after Irigonegaray finished a two-hour denunciation of intelligent design, its advocates and conservative board members.
Calvert, a retired Lake Quivira attorney who organized the case against evolutionary theory, accused Irigonegaray and his fellow evolution defenders of character assassination as the hearings came to a close.
"I don't think this strategy deserves a handshake," said Calvert, who also helped found the intelligent design network.
quote:
"I believe your behavior here was abusive," board member Connie Morris, of St. Francis, told Irigonegaray on Thursday. "I want you to know I forgive you."
I'm sure Mr. Irigonegary must be relieved that he has been forgiven.
The lunatics are running the asylum…
Oy, such a sorehead! He got his plough righteously cleaned by an expert and he knows it. Methinks it was exactly the sort of ax job he himself, planned to do on the scientists.
Tough titty, said the kitty, but now you gotta chew it!
It is interesting that they are waiting until August to present their desision, which I am convinced has already been made. That'll give this some time to cool off, they hope, and thus might avoid some flack.
Kind'a shows ya the sort of dream world they live in, doesn't it?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2005 : 11:43:29 [Permalink]
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Here is a copy of a letter that I sent to one of the board members in Kansas.
quote:
Dear Ms. Martin,
You said: "…We can't ignore that our nation is based on Christianity - not science." And with that in mind, the board is proposing a change in the definition of science by not limiting science to theories based on natural explanations. Just throw away the scientific method and let any hypothesis be regarded as a theory, as long as it has the approval of the Christian community.
I have news for you Ms. Martin. Science is not democratic. It goes where it goes. The proposed change in how science is defined would render science useless and at the same time force us to view your faith in the certainty of a creator as nothing more than a scientific hypothesis.
Everyone looses.
I feel sorry for the children in Kansas.
David Glück
Skeptic Friends Network
http://www.skepticfriends.org
Here is the Kansas State Board of Education Contact Information , in case anyone here would like to write a letter to any of the members, directly…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2005 : 11:48:56 [Permalink]
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Here's a couple of letters written by the two Steves, Abrams and Case, and posted on The Thumb.
I found them of more than passing interest.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 05/13/2005 11:50:23 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2005 : 18:11:34 [Permalink]
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Evolution Dominates Campaign in Pa. Town.
quote:
DOVER, Pa. -- On opposite sides of town, two billboards for competing slates of school board candidates illustrate the deep divide here over the teaching of evolution and the origin of life.
One sign shouts, "It's time for a new school board in Dover!" The other describes the seven sitting board members as "the INTELLIGENT choice" _ a reference to the board's decision last fall to require the mention of "intelligent design" in class.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2005 : 21:48:20 [Permalink]
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Kathy Martin replied:
quote:
Dear Mr. Gluck, It wouls be wise to be skeptic of
what you read in the media. It is often inaccurate
and misrepresented to reflect a certain viewpoint. I
certainly think science should go where it goes and
the evidence should be acknowledged and not
suppressed. The kids in Kansas are doing great, and
will continue, with God's grace, to do so! Kathy
Martin KBOE
Edited to add: So I guess my little letter to her didn't really change her mind...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2005 : 22:03:41 [Permalink]
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Well, the Panda's Thumb article has one hell of a creepy quote from Dembiski's blog:
quote:
Thus, in a crucial way, the Kansas hearings repeat the pattern set by the Scopes Trial, which has been repeated many times since, namely, evolutionists escaped critical scrutiny by not having to undergo cross-examination. In this case, they accomplished the feat by boycotting the hearings. I therefore await the day when the hearings are not voluntary but involve subpoenas that compel evolutionists to be deposed and interrogated at length on their views. There are ways for this to happen, and the wheels are in motion (e.g., Congressional hearings over the teaching of biology in federally funded high schools for military kids). For such hearings to have the desired effect, however, will require that evolutionists be asked the right questions.
What I propose, then, is a strategy for interrogating the Darwinists to, as it were, squeeze the truth out of them. For a glimpse of what I have in mind, see the examination of Eugenie Scott by Robert George before the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights (go here).
Fuck, he should look at the 29 Evidences for Macroevolution on the TO site, that's a 29-part cross examination right there. Bring that puppy to trial, and it'll bite his ass off.
It's be fun to see if they'd allow their views to be cross-examined as well. I know Stephen Gould once said that having them under cross-examination would be the only way to expose creaionists dishonest tactics.
If they're actually asking for it, I say we sodding give it to those berks.
Still, the tone of that is frightening. It's like the Inquistion is starting to wake up again, albeit slowly. It wouldn't be so bad if ID actually had something to show for itself, but so far as I know, they've got B-F- all. Yet, they've still got enough political power and public sympathy that their proponents can still suggest that kind of treatment of their "enemies" (ie. normal scientists!)
Of interest in Bill's article is his claim that the evolution lawyer in the Scopes trial dodged the chance to be cross-examined himself. Anyone know anything about that?
Also, is it coincidental that Dembski never mentioned anything about the 1981 Overton evolution trial? Didn't BOTH sides get cross-examined there? I know at least one evolutionist was, I think, Micheal Berra. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2005 : 01:00:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Of interest in Bill's article is his claim that the evolution lawyer in the Scopes trial dodged the chance to be cross-examined himself. Anyone know anything about that?
If what I have read on it is correct and my memory in working order, the lawyer did not dodge it. His testimony was merely put off for a day or so. Dembski is lying again. He does that a lot.
Dembski and his ilk are not interested in the truth. Their goal is the same, old shit: power and authority. He's just pissed that he got severely out-smarted, and his little show 'trial' turned into the pathetic joke it was destined to become from the get-go, and all he can do about it is whine.
Kil, I'm a bit suprised that you got an answer so soon (or at all). It was a rather meaningless reply, but it was probably the best Ms. Martin could manage under the circumstances.
It's going to be interesting to see if I was right when I said that the board's conclusion was already formed and the standards will be changed regardless of the outcome of this foolishness. If I was indeed right, the real fun will start around the beginning of September.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2005 : 07:27:56 [Permalink]
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If ID and it's kin get taught in the schools, does that mean that the Christian Right will flock into the government schools and the various shades of skeptics will be pulling theirs out to protect them from stupid 'science'?
I can see it now....a homeschooling renaissance among atheists and agnostics....
(though already about 20 % of homeschoolers nationwide are non-religious) |
Remarkable claims require remarkable proof.
-Carl Sagan |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2005 : 07:41:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
It's be fun to see if they'd allow their views to be cross-examined as well. I know Stephen Gould once said that having them under cross-examination would be the only way to expose creaionists dishonest tactics.
It's happened several times in Federal courts already. Creationists lost, every single time. As has been mentioned on PT several times, critics of creationism didn't even bother to show up in Kansas, and the creationists lost (how easy can it get?). And it's going to happen again soon in Dover, PA, and I heard a rumor that Dembski will be there on the witness stand, under oath. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2005 : 10:00:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dave W:
As has been mentioned on PT several times, critics of creationism didn't even bother to show up in Kansas, and the creationists lost (how easy can it get?).
Unfortunately, how the board would vote, as has been pointed out, was already decided before the hearings. So the testimony didn't matter. The above reply to my letter to Kathy Martin, a Kansas Board of Education member, shows exactly where they are coming from. They really do believe that the scientific community is suppressing the evidence for ID, or at the very least, supressing fatal flaws in the theory of evolution. Apparently, they wouldn't know what makes a legitimate theory if it hit them over the head.
Edited for typos
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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