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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 05/14/2005 : 10:32:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Of interest in Bill's article is his claim that the evolution lawyer in the Scopes trial dodged the chance to be cross-examined himself. Anyone know anything about that?
If what I have read on it is correct and my memory in working order, the lawyer did not dodge it. His testimony was merely put off for a day or so. Dembski is lying again. He does that a lot.
Would you have any idea where I could find more information to verify this? What books, or websites? I'd like to find out for sure, for obvious reasons.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2005 : 14:46:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
Would you have any idea where I could find more information to verify this? What books, or websites? I'd like to find out for sure, for obvious reasons.
Ironically, Ig, the answer to your question can be found in the PT Thread you linked to. Specifically, comment #29752, which contains a couple of links, one to a huge Scopes bibliography. The first link there, by the way, is for the complete transcripts as a $7 eBook, but Googling can find partial transcripts, like this one. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2005 : 23:32:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Of interest in Bill's article is his claim that the evolution lawyer in the Scopes trial dodged the chance to be cross-examined himself. Anyone know anything about that?
If what I have read on it is correct and my memory in working order, the lawyer did not dodge it. His testimony was merely put off for a day or so. Dembski is lying again. He does that a lot.
Would you have any idea where I could find more information to verify this? What books, or websites? I'd like to find out for sure, for obvious reasons.
Oops! I think I've made a mistake. I read that, I thought, during the first Kansas song & dance, but couldn't find it. As it turns out, Bryan was called to the stand as an expert witness on the Bible. He could have and should have refused, but did not.
Thus, should one do a review before making a statement! :embarrassed:
quote:
On the seventh day of trial, Raulston asked the defense if it had any more evidence. What followed was what the New York Times described as "the most amazing court scene on Anglo-Saxon history." Hays asked that William Jennings Bryan be called to the stand as an expert on the Bible. Bryan assented, stipulating only that he should have a chance to interrogate the defense lawyers. Bryan, dismissing the concerns of his prosecution colleagues, took a seat on the witness stand, and began fanning himself.
Darrow began his interrogation of Bryan with a quiet question: "You have given considerable study to the Bible, haven't you, Mr. Bryan?" Bryan replied, "Yes, I have. I have studied the Bible for about fifty years." Thus began a series of questions designed to undermine a literalist interpretation of the Bible. Bryan was asked about a whale swallowing Jonah, Joshua making the sun stand still, Noah and the great flood, the temptation of Adam in the garden of Eden, and the creation according to Genesis. After initially contending that "everything in the Bible should be accepted as it is given there," Bryan finally conceded that the words of the Bible should not always be taken literally. In response to Darrow's relentless questions as to whether the six days of creation, as described in Genesis, were twenty-four hour days, Bryan said "My impression is that they were periods."
Bryan, who began his testimony calmly, stumbled badly under Darrow's persistent prodding. At one point the exasperated Bryan said, "I do not think about things I don't think about." Darrow asked, "Do you think about the things you do think about?" Bryan responded, to the derisive laughter of spectators, "Well, sometimes." Both old warriors grew testy as the examination continued. Bryan accused Darrow of attempting to "slur at the Bible." He said that he would continue to answer Darrow's impertinent questions because "I want the world to know that this man, who does not believe in God, is trying to use a court in Tennessee--." Darrow interrupted his witness by saying, "I object to your statement" and to "your fool ideas that no intelligent Christian on earth believes." After that outburst, Raulston ordered the court adjourned. The next day, Raulston ruled that Bryan could not return to the stand and that his testimony the previous day should be stricken from evidence.
Bryan was unable to make his closing speech due to Darrow asking for and recieving a guilty verdict so that the case could go to the Tennesee Supreme court, which was the point of the whole thing to start with. That brought the trial to a close with Bryan, for all practical purposes, winning the case for the prosecution.
Thus, Dempski's whine still sucks Kool-Aid. Bryan never intended to call Darrow; rather he wanted to make a statement that would have made no difference at all to the outcome, whatever it's eloquence.
quote:
The trial was nearly over. Darrow asked the jury to return a verdict of guilty in order that the case might be appealed to the Tennessee Supreme Court. Under Tennessee law, Bryan was thereby denied the opportunity to deliver a closing speech he had labored over for weeks. The jury complied with Darrow's request, and Judge Raulston fined him $100.
William Jennings Byran was to die in his sleep some six days later.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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ooh_child
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2005 : 15:58:31 [Permalink]
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I saw today that Reuters news service picked up on this story, so I went to DI's site & found the expected spin:
“Darwinian scientists showed contempt for science and the citizens of Kansas by refusing to appear before the State School Board,” said Dr. Jonathan Wells, a biologist at the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture. “Why won't Darwinists defend biological and chemical evolutionary theory and answer questions posed by their scientific critics? What is it that they're afraid of? If they are so sure they are right, they should have the courage to be cross-examined.”
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2570&program=News&callingPage=discoMainPage
MHB |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2005 : 16:39:18 [Permalink]
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Wells is so full of crap. Again, every single time these issues have come before a Federal court, evolution's backers have been cross-examined and carried the day. And Wells also knows that the Kansas Board of Education didn't like the majority science standards, and so set up the "hearings" to do exactly as they did: give a soapbox to evolution deniers and "justify" the BoE's pre-ordained decision to disregard the science.
Of course, none of these facts matter to Wells, who's doing nothing but putting political spin on his own black eye. It is unbelievable that so many Christians back this sinner and others like him. Or, maybe it's not. Sigh. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 13:13:37 [Permalink]
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Jonathon Wells
quote:
reationist Jonathan Wells, an intelligent-design advocate affiliated with the Discovery Institute, has written a book entitled Icons of Evolution, which states that some of the best-known evidences for evolution -- such as the peppered moths, the Miller-Urey abiogenesis experiment, and the finches of the Galápagos islands -- are false, fraudulent or misrepresented in college-level textbooks. Articles found here refute Wells' book and demonstrate that the traditional, mainstream-science-supporting interpretations of these "icons" are correct.
Wells is little different from the rest of the ID blithers, and thourghly dishonest. He prostitutes his science for myth, his ethics for a bastardized version of his religion.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 23:21:40 [Permalink]
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Apparently this bit of stupid-fundamentalist drama isn't quite over.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8235272/
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2005 : 02:03:35 [Permalink]
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Posted by Kil: quote:
Unfortunately, how the board would vote, as has been pointed out, was already decided before the hearings. So the testimony didn't matter. The above reply to my letter to Kathy Martin, a Kansas Board of Education member, shows exactly where they are coming from. They really do believe that the scientific community is suppressing the evidence for ID, or at the very least, supressing fatal flaws in the theory of evolution. Apparently, they wouldn't know what makes a legitimate theory if it hit them over the head.
And I agree. The standards will be changed as orginally planned. This makes the whole thing mere wheel-spinning; a tempest in a chamber pot.
But take heart; as stated, this ain't over by a long chalk. In the next several months, a year perhaps, we will be further amused by the school board ducking the sure-to-come, public backlash when parents realize that their children are being taught barely enough science to qualify them to attend clown college.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2005 : 11:00:24 [Permalink]
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http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2005/10/nas_and_nsta_de.html
Seems that two national groups who put together school cirricula have specifically told the Kansas BOE that if they decide to go ahead with their plans to subvert science education, then they can't use any of the NAS or NSTA standards. Given that Kansas' science standards run over 100 pages, it'll take quite some time to eliminate all copyrighted materials from them, meaning they may not get implemented until after the next school board elections (at which point, one hopes the new board members will undo the creationists' folly, anyway). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2005 : 11:34:25 [Permalink]
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I tossed my ironey meter years ago. Was spending too much time fixing it's blown circutes every time some creationist opened his mouth.
So Dembsky wants to subpoena scientists, does he? One must ask: how many and which ones? And how many will be named, "Steve?" 
The guy is a cretin who is now talking just to hear the echo between his ears.
On a vaguely related note, I've read that the Discovery(?) Institute has a 4 million dollar annual budget and Talk Orgins is scuffling along on something less than four grand. There's a moral there, I think....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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