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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
 Posted - 10/03/2001 : 18:31:29
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Time for a new rant! (And no apologies this time – thanks to Garrette, who gave me a little more fortitude with the nice words in his recent posting and others on this board who have given me encouragement).
Here's a link to an extraordinary and hard-hitting article from the Council for Secular Humanism about the religion of Islam, one of several I've read recently. I see many on this board (and other boards) who are so quick to condemn every single aspect of Western and American society and culture (including religious belief, as long as it is Christian in nature)* while they tiptoe around the fact that Islamic extremists must and should be viewed as an expected product of their culture and beliefs. (*I do the same, by the way, probably because I know more about what Christians believe). The Islamist extremists are taking the material that IS there, in abundance, in the Qu'ran and other “sacred” texts (similar to how Christian Reconstructionists view the Bible) and they're using it to justify a totalitarian anti-democratic medieval vision of a “new world order”, one that feeds on ignorance and is brutally repressive under Shari' a law, one that is obtained at any price, including cruel acts of terrorism and “holy war”. A recent interview on NPR with several young men going to the madrassas Islamist schools in Pakistan was completely chilling – they are taught only those fundamentals in the Qu'ran that will aid in the establishment of this world order and receive no education whatsoever in science, mathematics, literature, or history (the latter being viewed as decadent Western influences). They are also taught to hate women, Jews, Hindus and Christians, and, especially, secularists. These same schools, of course, taught the Taliban. This fascist medievalism is growing rapidly in the same parts of the world that gave us many of the fundamental early discoveries in astronomy, mathematics, geography, navigation and medicine.
http://secularhumanism.org/wtc.htm
Before any of you can jump on the "rubysue is a racist" bandwagon, I must tell you that I wholeheartedly agree that many, if not most Arabs and Muslims are peace-loving people who have made extraordinary contributions to history and science (see last sentence above) and I admire many of the unique cultural attributes they have brought to the world (as I truly admire the contributions of European/American and Asian societies and other cultural groups, this being said so I won't get chastised for not being sufficiently multicultural and “too focused” on my evil capitalistic, imperialistic societal roots). But as Ibn Warraq so bluntly points out, adherents to Islam are taught that their real loyalties (if they were raised as true believers) are to Islam first and their native or adopted lands second (a far second). If the call to Islam requires them to defend the faith against “secular” or Western encroachment, many (if not most) will likely heed that call. Islam is perhaps unique among world religions, in that the religious “brotherhood” created by its teachings readily dissolves geopolitical borders. Ibn Warraq, by the way, for those who are not familiar with him, is a Muslim who founded the Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society and has been a frequent contributor to Free Inquiry and other CSH publications.
So, are you truly skeptics, who can freely criticize other cultures and religions (as well as your own) for their detracting and debilitating (evil?) influences on a forward-looking civilization or are you an apologist, who can only find fault with our society, while assuming that everyone else on this planet is “pure and good” and merely repressed and “rightfully” enraged by our over-bearing, over-consuming Western march toward world domination? Is that a loaded question?
By the way, it is now day 22 since the attacks on America, and we have not yet fired a shot at anyone, innocent or otherwise. I personally believe that the approach b
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2001 : 19:13:05 [Permalink]
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I think that it's a given that Islamic fundamentalism was a powerful, if not the most powerful, component in the events of September 11th.
But you have to ask yourself, "Why would someone consider the USA to be the 'great satan' and not some other contry?"
It's even more important to figure out some way to neutralize this sentiment that is so pervasive in the moslem world. Hunting down the terrorists is a given but only a fool would really believe we can get them all. In an age where a single weapon can destroy large areas and potentially millions of people we can't afford to let one of these get through.
I saw in the paper yesterday that the current administration was planning on recognizing Palestine and pusing Israel into giving up East Jerusalem. Now we can only wonder if that would have made any change in the terrorists plans.
I have to admit that more atention should be given to the help the United States gave to moslems living in Bosnia and Kosovo. We could have sat back and done nothing yet we did even though European nations could have taken care of it easily enough and we had far less to gain than they did.
The past administration also tried very hard for a Palestinian state and came very close. So there's plenty of good done by the US recently that can't be ignored.
It is interesting(as I had it pointed out by a Saudi Arabia citizen on another board) that we usually refer to people from the middle east as Arabs or Islamic or Moslem and never as citizens of the nation they are from. Maybe some of that has to do with the way they identify themselves often by religion before nationality but those national boundaries were set up for them by the west and that's probably a sore spot. They call us Americans or the "Great Satan" but not Christians.
I strongly doubt we'll get a Jihad out of this unless(and I really don't see this happening either now)we acted irrationally and did something like nuke Afghanistan. But we could see a lot of social unrest in the Islamic world and potentially even more hate against the US. They don't all hate us but we are sure to see some additional resentment no matter what we do. Obviously we can't do nothing but there are going to be costs and I don't mean just monetary.
I think finding a way to diffuse this turn towards religious extremism(them and us too) should be a top priority and if we can somehow do that we'll have a much better chance of making it to the 22nd century. I don't envision terrorists being able to destroy the entire US but life could be very difficult for everyone if the tension between our two cultures intensifies much more.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2001 : 23:58:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think finding a way to diffuse this turn towards religious extremism(them and us too) should be a top priority and if we can somehow do that we'll have a much better chance of making it to the 22nd century. I don't envision terrorists being able to destroy the entire US but life could be very difficult for everyone if the tension between our two cultures intensifies much more.
Absolutely. I see a chance that the religious right could come to power in this country if this anti-terrorist war goes badly. They are already isolationist, and failure in the terror war could easily play to their "turn back to god" mantra. Extremists of both left and right would see failure as vindicating their position. The far right is potentially much stronger in electoral terms. The religious right is backing Bush for now, but they consider him far from ideal. They could easily turn on him if they see a chance to grab the brass ring in 2004. If they think they have enough support, they can take over the Republican party completely and put their own guy in office. There is a lot at stake here.
Abducting UFOs and conspiring against conspiracy theorists since 1980. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 04:44:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Time for a new rant! (And no apologies this time - thanks to Garrette, who gave me a little more fortitude with the nice words in his recent posting and others on this board who have given me encouragement).
Nice post, rubysue!
Any religion that includes murdering people is evil. This does not mean that people following these religions are evil, far from it. Most people refrain from their religions most bizarre practises. This is because people are good, but their religions are still evil.
I'm quite comfortable living with so called christian values, but how could I ever accept a religion wich does not reject Exodus, Leviticus etc.
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."
Psalms 137:9
Edited by - StarMan on 10/04/2001 06:39:26 |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 05:29:20 [Permalink]
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Here's another interesting opinion article that correlates to what I posted above. It does make you wonder what would happen if a "call to jihad" happened for all believers in Islam...
http://www.msnbc.com/news/635263.asp
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Edited by - rubysue on 10/04/2001 05:31:08 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 05:30:06 [Permalink]
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Superstition is superstition, and superstition is dangerous, whether it be religious superstition, political superstition, or scientific superstition.
I don't know who is posting things against the U.S. here, but that's probably for another time.
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Time for a new rant! (And no apologies this time – thanks to Garrette,
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/04/2001 05:40:41 |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 05:44:54 [Permalink]
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What a joke, Gorgo! Everything you post is an anti-American diatribe that accuses this country of genocide and imperialistic foreign policy actions. I have avoided any direct confrontation with you in the past because I consider your opinions to be unproven (based on everything that I've read across a spectrum of analysis) and bordering on the seditious. I also personally loathe confrontations with extremist radicals who have their minds made up. Perhaps you should consider going to live with your buddy Saddam in one of his 40 palaces that he built with UN aid that was sent to Iraq for the general populace.
I have to go to work now for my company that provides products for the "imperialistic American war machine.". It's apparent to me that many of you have much more time to debate these ideas, just like those charming protestors (do they have jobs?) that I had to witness over the weekend in Washington who burned the American flag just for the hell of it.
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I don't know who is posting things against the U.S. here, but that's probably for another time.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 05:56:36 [Permalink]
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I see. To try to improve things is to be "Anti-American." Sort of like "Anti-Soviet," huh? Better go to one of those thought adjustment camps, right?
Seditious? Wow!
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What a joke, Gorgo! Everything you post is an anti-American diatribe that accuses this country of genocide and imperialistic foreign policy actions. I have avoided any direct confrontation with you in the past because I consider your opinions to be unproven (based on everything that I've read across a spectrum of analysis) and bordering on the seditious. I also personally loathe confrontations with extremist radicals who have their minds made up. Perhaps you should consider going to live with your buddy Saddam in one of his 40 palaces that he built with UN aid that was sent to Iraq for the general populace.
I have to go to work now for my company that provides products for the "imperialistic American war machine.". It's apparent to me that many of you have much more time to debate these ideas, just like those charming protestors (do they have jobs?) that I had to witness over the weekend in Washington who burned the American flag just for the hell of it.
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I don't know who is posting things against the U.S. here, but that's probably for another time.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 06:22:52 [Permalink]
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I see. To try to improve things is to be "Anti-American."
No but blaming the US for genocide in Iraq is.
You are not calling the sanctions wrong, misdirected or a mistake. You are calling them murder, willful killing.
Saddam can end the suffering of his people at any time, but chooses not to do so.
If you are posting here to improve things you are not very good at it. If you are trying to insult people, you have managed to succeed a little better.
"Peace in our time."
-- Neville Chamberlain
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 06:37:48 [Permalink]
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Yes, it is murder. I have no control over Saddam Hussein. As citizens, we are supposed to have some control over what our government does. To stop murdering and terrorizing people would improve things.
And by what do you think you're insulted?
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No but blaming the US for genocide in Iraq is.
You are not calling the sanctions wrong, misdirected or a mistake. You are calling them murder, willful killing.
Saddam can end the suffering of his people at any time, but chooses not to do so.
If you are posting here to improve things you are not very good at it. If you are trying to insult people, you have managed to succeed a little better.
"Peace in our time."
-- Neville Chamberlain
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/04/2001 06:40:47 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 06:56:28 [Permalink]
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And by what do you think anyone is insulted, and where are you from? Do you think that it is wrong to try to improve your government?
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And by what do you think you're insulted?
I'm not and I didnt say I was. I'm not an American.
"A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45"
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 07:27:29 [Permalink]
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Then we seem to be in agreement that there is no reason for people to be insulted, that to be insulted would be irrational, and that it is good to work towards the improvement of life on the planet if one cares about such things.
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[
By reading your posts and other SFN members reactions my impression is that some people are annoyed.
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and where are you from?
As my profile shows, I'm from Sweden.
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Do you think that it is wrong to try to improve your government?
Of course not. Its not wrong to try to improve the situation of the Iraqi people either.
Never said anything of the kind.
"A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45"
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 07:49:56 [Permalink]
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Anyway rubysue,
I think one of the reasons most of us are tiptoeing around the Islamic/Muslim thing is it is something with which most of us are unfamiliar. I must say, I did enjoy reading the article. I do have a copy of the Qu'ran on CD but have yet to get around to reading that mythology. I think though, that I will never know quite enough, other than that which is said in the Qu'ran, what mainstream Islamic beliefs are vs fundamental fanaticism. Being well versed in mainstream xianity vs fundamentalism, I am more inclined to argue it's funny quirks and specific canons.
Basically I am held back by my own ignorance on the issue from speaking out on Islam. However, that does not mean that I do not understand that atrocities are committed in the name of the islamic god Allah. Nor does it mean that I would be more inclined to believe that version of god above another. I don't know enough to say much. I don't think any of us do.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." ~Blaise Pascal |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 08:03:27 [Permalink]
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Then we seem to be in agreement that there is no reason for people to be insulted, that to be insulted would be irrational,
No! Accusing the US of murder is an insult, calling people irrational is an insult and trying to make it seem like I agree with you is insulting.
 (elucidation) Over n' Out!
Edited by - StarMan on 10/05/2001 02:02:08
Edited by - StarMan on 10/05/2001 02:40:39 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 08:16:11 [Permalink]
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An insult would mean that I am attacking something. I am attacking nothing. To be insulted by that would be irrational. To say that someone is acting in an irrational manner is not an attack, merely an observation in an attempt to clarify a situation. To be insulted by that would be irrational. The manner in which it is delivered might be rude. If my manner is rude, I can only apologize. Tell me which word I used that seems rude, and I'll try to clarify. Murder is killing someone intentionally against the law. The U.S. has attacked the civilian population of Iraq against International Law, or what the U.S. would call international law as it is applied to other countries. The U.S., of course, thinks it is exempt from international law, the rules of the U.N., etc. That is not an attack, that is an assessment of the situation. I personally, am not asking that anyone be attacked for that.
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Then we seem to be in agreement that there is no reason for people to be insulted, that to be insulted would be irrational,
No! Accusing the US of murder is an insult, calling people irrational is an insult and trying to make it seem like I agree with you is insulting.
Out!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 09:36:30 [Permalink]
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Hey, if you don't like opposing views you can always go to Afghanistan. I hear they frown on it there.
You'll love it.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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