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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2001 : 10:10:54 [Permalink]
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This is a lie, of course. I am no friend of dictators, and the Oil-for-food money was strictly supervised. Very little of that money ended up where it wasn't supposed to.
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Perhaps you should consider going to live with your buddy Saddam in one of his 40 palaces that he built with UN aid that was sent to Iraq for the general populace.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 15:28:57 [Permalink]
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Extremists of both left and right would see failure as vindicating their position. ---Piltdown
Piltdown, thanks a lot, just when I was beginning to get a good nights sleep, you pull out this little truism.
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The U.S. has attacked the civilian population of Iraq against International Law, or what the U.S. would call international law as it is applied to other countries. ---georgo
You have yet to prove that accusation. No matter how many times you repeat it, your accusation still lacks proof.
Remove Saddam Hussein by force, help stop the murder of the Iraqi people. |
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 17:02:24 [Permalink]
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The following is from an article by Kathleen Parker (Orlando Sentinel) that appeared in the Charlotte Observer talking about the treatment of women by the Taliban.
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They're banned from education, working or speaking to an unrelated male. They can be arrested for venturing outside their houses without a make relative, and even then only for a government-sanctioned purpose. For walking down the street with an unrelated man, a single woman gets 100 lashes. If she's married, she's stoned to death.
Thousands of men routinely herd themselves into stadiums to watch as errant women are ceremoniously flogged. Even boys have permission to use weapons on members of the captive sex if they think the women are breaking any of the Taliban's laws. Their favorite weapon, second only to automatic weapons, is a broken off car aerial or electrical cable, the better to whip them with.
The article goes on to tell the story of
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a teen-age Taliban guard who shot a young mother when he spotted her rushing her ailing toddler to a doctor. The woman was covered head to toe as required by law, but she was unescorted.
The Taliban court decided the young mother was the guilty party.
The Taliban may be worse than the Naxis. They only made war on people who didn't match their germanic idea. The Taliban make war on their own mothers, wives, and daughters.
I just thought I'd throw this out for those of you who still aren't clear on who's really the bad guys.
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 18:26:36 [Permalink]
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@tomic:
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Hey, if you don't like opposing views you can always go to Afghanistan. I hear they frown on it there.
You'll love it.
@tomic
Wonderful! (An assenting view, as usual.)
ljbrs  
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 20:52:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think that it's a given that Islamic fundamentalism was a powerful, if not the most powerful, component in the events of September 11th.
But you have to ask yourself, "Why would someone consider the USA to be the 'great satan' and not some other contry?"
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
usa is the great satan because the united states via hollywood and sheer economic power sets the cultural tone for the world. protestant fundis not-withstanding, our culture is totally materialistic and secular.
they correctly understand that some cultures are superior to others. how can the islamic world rationalize its own poverty and corruption as the non-secular west, the united states in particular appear to thumb its collective nose at god and prosper.
hardly a comprehensive answer, but i think there is a big islamic inferiority complex. they have every reason to feel inferior to the west.
this sort of thing happens when you take religion too seriously. the europeans lightened up after the very ugly 30 years war.
comrade billyboy |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 21:35:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
It's apparent to me that many of you have much more time to debate these ideas, just like those charming protestors (do they have jobs?) that I had to witness over the weekend in Washington who burned the American flag just for the hell of it.
Gee, quoting my own quote, here's a link to an article about funerals that took place in NYC today (10/04), funerals that used that same American flag to honor those who have perished (like NY Fire Dept. Captain Terence Hatton), rather than as something that burns like cheap, tawdry paper (and NO, I don't believe in an amendment to outlaw flag burning - I am more than ever completely and totally committed to the Bill of Rights and our Constitution. Just as an exercise in fairness, why isn't anyone in this country burning the Taliban flag - is there one?).
I've usually not been a "jingoistic, militaristic apologist" for the American flag (to paraphrase Katha Pollitt, who frowned on her daughter when she wanted to buy a flag and fly it in honor of those who died), but, in the last three weeks, I feel something for this country and for what that flag represents that speaks to my heart (rather than my logical brain); it says that what is represents is worth defending from tyranny and oppression. If this is an emotional reaction, bereft of skepticism and logic, well then so be it. I proudly stand accused of finally, deeply caring about my country, about the rights that we take for granted, and about the freedoms and promise for the future it represents to everyone in the world.
Go ahead, cough up a hairball, as you contemplate my defection to the sappy side of life (buy me a bus ticket to Branson while you're at it!). I have had enough of cynicism, hatred and self-loathing (and I've probably also had more than enough wine and will regret this little poetic excursion in the morning - oh, well!).
A thought for you SFN lurkers who are still thinking that the good ol' US of A is "prematurely overreacting" to this atrocity and preparing nukes: We're now going to use our first military incursions in Afghanistan to provide the poor blighted souls in that beknighted country with massive humanitarian aid. Bomb 'em with butter, I say...
http://www.msnbc.com/news/627989.asp
 
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2001 : 04:06:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
You have yet to prove that accusation. No matter how many times you repeat it, your accusation still lacks proof.
This isn't a court of law or a science lab. I can only suggest that you read something besides State Department handouts on the subject.
From the histrionics I've seen displayed regarding the subject, it would take much more than facts to convince most people. It would be like showing fundies that their god is made up.
We had a former Attorney General of the United States hold a tribunal in New York in 1992, with lawyers and former judges and human rights workers, former legislators and miliary and union people. Not a word about it in any newspaper or television news program. They found the U.S. administration guilty of war crimes. Not a legal trial, just a show trial, as those who were accused did not wish to attend. If they couldn't even get a word in the corporate media, I don't imagine that this level of fundamentalist thought will be cracked much be me.
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Remove Saddam Hussein by force, help stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
Thanks to the U.S.'s brutal policy, there are a number of people in a country that used to love the U.S. that think Saddam Hussein is a wuss. Get rid of Saddam, and you'll see worse. Especially since the U.S. isn't about to let a democracy come into power in the country.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/05/2001 04:10:12
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/05/2001 04:17:16 |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2001 : 05:23:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Just as an exercise in fairness, why isn't anyone in this country burning the Taliban flag - is there one?).
If there is one, it ain't outside of Afghanistan. And if there was one, how much you wanna bet that there'd be people screaming racism if people in the US were to burn it?
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...(to paraphrase Katha Pollitt, who frowned on her daughter when she wanted to buy a flag and fly it in honor of those who died)
What?!?! Why?
Prayer is nothing more than "spiritual masturbation". -theatheistknight |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2001 : 10:42:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
I saw in the paper yesterday that the current administration was planning on recognizing Palestine and pusing Israel into giving up East Jerusalem. Now we can only wonder if that would have made any change in the terrorists plans.
Doubt it would have made a bit of difference, @tomic.
"..,young men going to the madrassas Islamist schools in Pakistan was completely chilling – they are taught only those fundamentals in the Qu'ran that will aid in the establishment of this world order and receive no education whatsoever in science, mathematics, literature, or history."
And an important point, this is the only teaching they receive, a good place to begin turning this thing around, would be to see that there are some real schools made available. Might be money well spent, an investment in a more peaceful future.
A good but very scary article, rubysue. The more information i have read about "modern Islam," it seems obvious to me, Islam has some house-cleaning to do. It may very well be, a "Holy Islamic Jihad" will prove to be unavoidable. They have already declared one, afterall, and we may be forced to take it serously. Hope not, but if so, would be a good time to dig out and dust off those neutron bombs, we've been saving for a rainy day. And solve the world's population problem to boot...
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2001 : 11:50:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
The Taliban may be worse than the Naxis. They only made war on people who didn't match their germanic idea. The Taliban make war on their own mothers, wives, and daughters.
I just thought I'd throw this out for those of you who still aren't clear on who's really the bad guys.
Of course they treat women like that. Women have no souls, silly.
I know, I know, when you look at "Good Morning America" or "Oprah" they have women of Islam on who are wearing Brooks Brother's suits and have advanced degrees. Funny in my time in Africa and Indonesia I never noticed any of these fashion plates.
Now if you'll dust off your copy of the Omn-al-Kităb (the doctrine of the Noseiri) you'll find that women were created from the sediment of the sins of demons, to serve only as temptations to sinners. They are of value only as vehicles for the entry into the world of spirits condemned temporarily to take on flesh in punishment for their sins. So shooting one would be smiled on by God.
And don't forget that they are expecting a Messiah like the Jews are. You'll know he's the Messiah for sure because a man will become pregnant in order to bear him.
Let's ship the Afgans off a load of Vogues and Cosmos. Once their women see what they're missing-they can do the fighting.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2001 : 15:07:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
And don't forget that they are expecting a Messiah like the Jews are. You'll know he's the Messiah for sure because a man will become pregnant in order to bear him. ---Slater
Interesting, do you have any links please? |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2001 : 16:15:49 [Permalink]
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Interesting, do you have any links please?
Sorry Marvin, we're talking books here--reference already given
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2001 : 05:11:17 [Permalink]
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Thanks Slater. More interesting reading for when I finish reading the Qur'an. Is this book difficult to find?
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." ~Blaise Pascal |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2001 : 11:43:09 [Permalink]
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Is this book difficult to find?
It's a basic Shi'a (Shi'ite) text, but in these days, when there is a P.C.view of Islam, you might have trouble finding one because of it's blatant misogyny.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2001 : 12:27:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
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...(to paraphrase Katha Pollitt, who frowned on her daughter when she wanted to buy a flag and fly it in honor of those who died)
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What?!?! Why?
Because she has decided that the American flag is nothing more than a symbol of "jingoism, vengeance and war", not to mention the macho posturing of the militarists. It's typical mealy-mouthed leftist postmodernism that is typical of the recent columns in the Nation. The irony of my last sentence is that I probably agreed with her opinions on many other topics (at least prior to September 11), but she is, IMHO, out to lunch with this radicalism that do not recognize in any way, shape or form the horror that happened on American soil.
She leaves any empathy for the victims behind and immediately jumps on the "peace, love, justice, solidarity, equality, one world, Amerika is the bad guy" bandwagon, because the flag (to her) is still a symbol of injustices of the Vietnam war (time to move out of the sixties and early seventies, Katha). She, along with other aging hippies and Howard Zinn-inspired Gen X/Y slackers, who wouldn't know a legitimate threat to their freedoms to posture and pontificate if it kicked them in the face.
Apparently, even the regular readers of this publication took issue with her comments, because she apparently got more nasty letters due to this column than almost anything in her writing career and her daughter received many flags in the mail.
Slater - Interesting resource! Such a charming religion, isn't it? I have read other resources confirming this belief that women are not human and have no souls. All you have to do is read the last will and testament of Muhammed Atta (one of the terrorist hijackers) to know how much hatred for women is present in their beliefs. He asked that no pregnant women be allowed near his body and also requested that no women ever be allowed to go past his grave. The ultimate irony is that this bastard and his body pieces are probably permanently entwined with the remains of women who were on that airplane.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Edited by - rubysue on 10/06/2001 12:36:39 |
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