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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
 Posted - 10/06/2001 : 16:48:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
It's a basic Shi'a (Shi'ite) text, but in these days, when there is a P.C.view of Islam, you might have trouble finding one because of it's blatant misogyny.
Hmm, well will have to check for it anyway. Thanks.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 01:02:39 [Permalink]
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Ahh.., it's good to see that you're back in form, rubysue.
Someone here at SFN, suggested that we should capture Osama, give him a quick sex change with breast implants, then deposit him right back. Really enjoy the image of shim trying to fend off a 'train' of martyr wanabe's...  God is great
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 04:03:08 [Permalink]
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I've learned the past month that a lot of people don't see waving the flag as a jingoistic military act. Or so they say. So, it's been a learning experience for me, and if they don't see it that way, that's wonderful and I think it's great that they do it.
To me, it turns the world into a football game. Wave the flag, yell "God Bless America" and everything will be okay, because everything the U.S. does is saintly by definition, and if "OUR PRESIDENT" deems it necessary to kill a few million Afghans for the flag, then well, he must be right, and Dan Rather will "line up" wherever he tells him to. We don't even have to count the bodies anymore the propaganda machine is so effective everyone knows that we're doing the work of the Lord.
quote:
Because she has decided that the American flag is nothing more than a symbol of "jingoism, vengeance and war", not to mention the macho posturing of the militarists. It's typical mealy-mouthed leftist postmodernism that is typical of the recent columns in the Nation. The irony of my last sentence is that I probably agreed with her opinions on many other topics (at least prior to September 11), but she is, IMHO, out to lunch with this radicalism that do not recognize in any way, shape or form the horror that happened on American soil.
She leaves any empathy for the victims behind and immediately jumps on the "peace, love, justice, solidarity, equality, one world, Amerika is the bad guy" bandwagon, because the flag (to her) is still a symbol of injustices of the Vietnam war (time to move out of the sixties and early seventies, Katha). She, along with other aging hippies and Howard Zinn-inspired Gen X/Y slackers, who wouldn't know a legitimate threat to their freedoms to posture and pontificate if it kicked them in the face.
Apparently, even the regular readers of this publication took issue with her comments, because she apparently got more nasty letters due to this column than almost anything in her writing career and her daughter received many flags in the mail.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/09/2001 04:05:10 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 11:55:44 [Permalink]
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I find it disturbing when people get upset that people don't get into flag waving. It's even more upsetting when they start talking about how people shouldn't have a right. If people didn't have a right to not fly a flag or burn it or whatever then I don't know why those who do want to fly a flag would even bother.
But to me flag waving is the most shallow form of patriotism. It's just the worship of a symbol and I have a hard time seeing people's newfound patriotism knowing that many don't know much of anything about American history and can't appreciate that loving your country sometimes means criticizing it in order to try and make it better.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2001 : 08:45:52 [Permalink]
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@tomic, I am NOT saying you or anyone else has done this. But in some fashions - critizing the government/country - has lead to blaming or laying of blame for the attacks at the WTC and the Pentagon. Not critizing the government/country will prevent our support of our rights. Though there are those who are blaming without questioning the government.
Those who will hate will find any reason to hate.
No amount of flag waving will substitute for action in your convictions. I've owned a flag for years and have flown it on Flag Day, The Marine Corps Birthday, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, and Independence Day. I respect our country and to me it is a symbol of what we have as a nation.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2001 : 09:48:20 [Permalink]
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I don't know how many times I've been told that I've been able to speak because of the death of others, so shut the hell up. Not in so many words, but that's the meaning behind it.
quote:
@tomic, I am NOT saying you or anyone else has done this. But in some fashions - critizing the government/country - has lead to blaming or laying of blame for the attacks at the WTC and the Pentagon. Not critizing the government/country will prevent our support of our rights. Though there are those who are blaming without questioning the government.
Those who will hate will find any reason to hate.
No amount of flag waving will substitute for action in your convictions. I've owned a flag for years and have flown it on Flag Day, The Marine Corps Birthday, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, and Independence Day. I respect our country and to me it is a symbol of what we have as a nation.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2001 : 10:31:21 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, I've never said that. Um, I will defend your right to say anything that you want, however, I will also exercise my right to do so. You disparage the military. Fine, do that, with the understanding that these are the folks that are willing to get dirty so you can keep your hands clean. You dislike something in this government - fine do something about it. I've yet to see *protests* against what's happening in Iraq. If you really believe in your cause - if there are those who really believe in your cause - then vocally support such cause.
You have the right to protest, and enough protests might just get the attention of the National Media. Instead you say the same thing again and again and again. You, to some, have belittled who and what they are, denied - much as has Kathleen Parker - what their lives are about.
I don't deny you your right to say what you will - don't deny mine. I was only reminding you that you are calling killers those who felt it was their duty to serve their country and by association you.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2001 : 10:44:30 [Permalink]
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I don't recall disparaging anyone, least of all soldiers.
It was the big thing back during the Gulf War for people to say "Support Our Troops." In other words, shut up and fall in line with the Bush regime's view of the world. I wanted to support our troops and bring them home where they belong rather than killing people that had no more to do with the world's problems than any of the rest of us.
I really don't know what's going on in Afghanistan. Maybe this really is a battle between God and the Devil and "Dubya" is God's appointed avenging angel. From the look of past wars, it ain't likely.
quote:
Gorgo, I've never said that. Um, I will defend your right to say anything that you want, however, I will also exercise my right to do so. You disparage the military. Fine, do that, with the understanding that these are the folks that are willing to get dirty so you can keep your hands clean. You dislike something in this government - fine do something about it. I've yet to see *protests* against what's happening in Iraq. If you really believe in your cause - if there are those who really believe in your cause - then vocally support such cause.
You have the right to protest, and enough protests might just get the attention of the National Media. Instead you say the same thing again and again and again. You, to some, have belittled who and what they are, denied - much as has Kathleen Parker - what their lives are about.
I don't deny you your right to say what you will - don't deny mine. I was only reminding you that you are calling killers those who felt it was their duty to serve their country and by association you.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/11/2001 10:51:37 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 05:20:09 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, I'm going to put this in terms simple enough that a five year old can understand. Everytime you call the US murderers - you by implication call all US service members murderers. Why? Simply because the US military is the instrument of actions you call murder. You can substitute whatever euphemism you feel like using for murder - its all the same.
quote:
It was the big thing back during the Gulf War for people to say "Support Our Troops." In other words, shut up and fall in line with the Bush regime's view of the world. I wanted to support our troops and bring them home where they belong rather than killing people that had no more to do with the world's problems than any of the rest of us.
Ya ever think it may have been so that people like you didn't demonize our troops going over to Saudia. Or maybe it was America's way of saying - Vietnam is over. Or maybe it was a bunch of things. You seem to attribute more power to the Office of the President than that allowed.
You really think that Bush is smart enough?
And no Garrette - I didn't vote for Bush - I wrote in McCain and E. Dole.  I didn't like any of the choices.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 05:28:25 [Permalink]
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Well, yes, by association we are all murderers. I am part of the organization, I pay taxes. Just because you don't feel good about someone saying that doesn't mean that it changes anything. Murder and genocide are legal terms. I'm not making judgments, I'm just saying that so many people think that the U.S. is this paragon of virtue, but the truth is that they haven't given a shit about the rule of law except when it applies to other countries.
quote:
Gorgo, I'm going to put this in terms simple enough that a five year old can understand. Everytime you call the US murderers - you by implication call all US service members murderers. Why? Simply because the US military is the instrument of actions you call murder. You can substitute whatever euphemism you feel like using for murder - its all the same.
quote:
It was the big thing back during the Gulf War for people to say "Support Our Troops." In other words, shut up and fall in line with the Bush regime's view of the world. I wanted to support our troops and bring them home where they belong rather than killing people that had no more to do with the world's problems than any of the rest of us.
Ya ever think it may have been so that people like you didn't demonize our troops going over to Saudia. Or maybe it was America's way of saying - Vietnam is over. Or maybe it was a bunch of things. You seem to attribute more power to the Office of the President than that allowed.
You really think that Bush is smart enough?
And no Garrette - I didn't vote for Bush - I wrote in McCain and E. Dole. I didn't like any of the choices.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 05:53:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
And no Garrette - I didn't vote for Bush - I wrote in McCain and E. Dole.
Dang. And you were SOOO close to being perfect.
(Edited for spelling)
My kids still love me.
Edited by - Garrette on 10/12/2001 05:53:29 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 05:55:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well, yes, by association we are all murderers. I am part of the organization, I pay taxes. Just because you don't feel good about someone saying that doesn't mean that it changes anything. Murder and genocide are legal terms. I'm not making judgments, I'm just saying that so many people think that the U.S. is this paragon of virtue, but the truth is that they haven't given a shit about the rule of law except when it applies to other countries.
Please show conclusive proof of an international law that subjugates the sovereignty of the United States. When you accomplish that - well then maybe you have a leg to stand on. Until then, the United States and every sovereign nation is just that a sovereign nation not subject *international law*.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 05:57:49 [Permalink]
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In other words, there is no international law? ? ? We can expect no one in the international arena to be held to any kind of standards?
quote:
quote:
Well, yes, by association we are all murderers. I am part of the organization, I pay taxes. Just because you don't feel good about someone saying that doesn't mean that it changes anything. Murder and genocide are legal terms. I'm not making judgments, I'm just saying that so many people think that the U.S. is this paragon of virtue, but the truth is that they haven't given a shit about the rule of law except when it applies to other countries.
Please show conclusive proof of an international law that subjugates the sovereignty of the United States. When you accomplish that - well then maybe you have a leg to stand on. Until then, the United States and every sovereign nation is just that a sovereign nation not subject *international law*.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/12/2001 08:05:49 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 23:01:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
And no Garrette - I didn't vote for Bush - I wrote in McCain and E. Dole.
Dang. And you were SOOO close to being perfect.
(Edited for spelling)
My kids still love me.
Edited by - Garrette on 10/12/2001 05:53:29
Comes of being a registered Independant.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2001 : 03:57:25 [Permalink]
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The U.S is not bound by its word? The U.S. is not a signatory to the Geneva Convention and a member of the UN? Is law only for those that the U.S. brings to its knees in meaningless battles? Nuremburb was a fraud? There is no need whatsoever for honor or ethics?
quote:
quote:
Well, yes, by association we are all murderers. I am part of the organization, I pay taxes. Just because you don't feel good about someone saying that doesn't mean that it changes anything. Murder and genocide are legal terms. I'm not making judgments, I'm just saying that so many people think that the U.S. is this paragon of virtue, but the truth is that they haven't given a shit about the rule of law except when it applies to other countries.
Please show conclusive proof of an international law that subjugates the sovereignty of the United States. When you accomplish that - well then maybe you have a leg to stand on. Until then, the United States and every sovereign nation is just that a sovereign nation not subject *international law*.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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