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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
 Posted - 06/16/2005 : 16:00:34
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This is an interesting little speach from the former Gov. of Colorado. I wish I could completely disagree with all points of it, but I can't.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/lamm.asp
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You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
Edited by - Paulos23 on 06/16/2005 16:02:00
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend
313 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2005 : 17:24:02 [Permalink]
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So how do you explain countries like Singapore? In Singapore practically everyone is bilingual (part of the curriculum) and it's not just multicultural, each race tries to embrace the cultures of others. Some public holidays are really only significant to a particular race/religion but everybody celebrates. During Chinese New Year everyone celebrates not just the Chinese, when the Muslims break fast everyone celebrates with them (and why wouldn't you the food is great). Everyone gets a long fine.
Australia is also multicultural and exists relatively peacefully. Though I do not think its quite as integrated as Singapore is. No one publicly celebrates other holidays.
There is one good point: you should stress similarities rather than differences. If people have a common goal, they are much more likely to work together. Oh wait ... I figured out Singapore. The food. Everyone loves food. Rightly so, its damn good. I miss it. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2005 : 20:48:41 [Permalink]
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He makes some good points, some I'd have to agree with.
Food for thought, at the very least.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2005 : 05:08:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy are deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American Dream.
In the 8 points made on how to destroy America I didn't see any mention of what will most likely be the downfall. It is something we have been doing to ourselves (our elected officials that is) and at an accelerated pace during the past 25 years (with some respite in the late 1990s). Something that the ancient Egyptians did, something that the Romans did, something that the Chinese did. They spent more than they received in revenue and continued to do so until it was too late. Short sited leaders. The comfort of today at the expense of tomorrow. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2005 : 07:14:10 [Permalink]
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I found must of his arguments to be pure crap. The typical anti-immigration stuff we typically see today.
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History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures.
Hogwash. If we ignore the facts that no nation appears to survive forever, and there are many reasons for nations to fall. There were and are many nations that existed or exist in a bilingual/bicultural state. Today most European nations are now dominated by many languages and cultures. Does it makes things difficult? Yes of course it does, but it does nothing to guarantee destruction as both Canada & France are living examples not to mention the U.S. I think it does require a high level of education and a strong commitment to reversing ethnocentric views, but it does not require pure cultural relativism either. A properly educated and enlightened society can pull it off and I would say has.
His 2nd point actually contains a couple valid points:
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I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.
While we can celebrate other cultures and their existence in America and enrich our lives by exposure to them, we do not need to do these other things from his 2nd point above which could possibly destroy America.
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Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentric and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.
This is a good thing, not a destructive force, but a unifying force. A celebration and enrichment of many cultures for an enlightened population.
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It is important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living in America reinforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities.
Again a strength, not a weakness, if handled correctly. Cultures can go extinct just like species. One of the greatest defenses against biological extinction is variety. While I don't like portraying biological traits on cultures in this case I would say the same probably holds true for cultures.
His fourth point on education would be an issue to address, but not an impossible one to address. We managed to take thousands upon thousands of uneducated European & African immigrants all speaking many languages and seemed to do ok. Why can we not do the same for Hispanic, Asian, or African immigrants today.
His fifth point on Victimology, while maybe a minor issue in some cases, is not what is happening in America today. There are real social issues at stake. I don't know of any cultural or biological difference between Europeans, Asians, Africans, or Hispanics that would prevent them from being successful in the U.S. other than a lack of education.
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A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent.
However today this is gaining ground in many enlightened and highly educated societies. Comparing today to countries from hundreds of years ago or to countries that still live in similar social structures today is pure poppycock.
This really is a highly ethnocentric and even racial speech. Notice he never complains about all the different European cultures that came to America, at least those of western Europe. English, Irish, and Scottish are different enough not to even mention throwing in Scandinavian, Dutch, German, French, or Italians among others. Many of these immigrants that came from here were uneducated, many did not understand English. Many of these people continue to maintain separate cultures and for most it wasn't until their children that they learned English as a language. We Still have Italian and Irish cultural groups in many large cities. Yet I don't see America falling apart at the seems.
Why does he single out Hispanics, Blacks, & Asians? I find very few good points made in his speech and many bad ones. This is the old stop immigration because it will destroy America argument started in the 1920's when it was eastern Europeans, because they were uneducated and didn't speak English. Now its just applied to people with darker skin. |
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 14:57:02 [Permalink]
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And before the eastern Europeans were to be the downfall of America, it was the Irish.
Yet, I feel like the Governor has a bit of a point. We as a society need to accept individuals into our culture, and accept that they come from different backgrounds, and might have cosmetic differences, but all are capable of becoming contributing American citizens. I think the problem is when groups demand the same standing that we give to the individual - from corporations that are treated under the law as "individuals" to churches that demand we admit we're a "christian" nation.
But, to be an American, one has to accept America, too. If you don't want your kids to be Americans, this may not be the place for you. This is not to say that you should give up your first language, or that a nation can't have more than one official language [Switzerland has four, and is not Balkanized]
An American accepts that religion is a right of the indivdual [the physical individual, not the corporate "legal fiction" individual], not a part of American secular government. An American accepts that even tiny and unpopular minorities have the same rights as any rich, popular, religious member of the ethnic majority. An American prizes the rights of an individual, including the right to privacy, so much that the rights of accused criminals are scrupulously protected, and searches are only permitted for just cause. An American understands that protections of convicts' rights is not to make the criminal happy, but to keep the standard of proof in such cases high, and to protect wrongly accused citizens.
In closing, I think that the main danger to America is not the small percentage who have moved here, but the lack of citizenship education in the people who were born here. |
trish |
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