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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 10/12/2001 : 11:30:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
That would be nice to see. It wooul also be nice to see people respond to what you are saying rather than fly off the handle and deliberately misrepresent what's being said.
And Rubysue, what's bothering me is how you personally attack people here in an unreasonable, unfair way. You are being a bully.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
@tomic,
My perception of Gorgo's main gist is not unique. I expressed what I saw and recieved the attitude I was reporting right back. I still think that the path he was argueing was strictly "American Government is Bad". If that is deliberate misrepresentation, then I guess I'm guilty. The point being, when several people have the same opinion of the tone of a message, there just might be something to it.
Gorgo,
If you think what I was saying was a monologue, then you are profoundly wrong. I will admit the post was out of extreme frustration. The words "bad", "evil", "genocidal" are percieved through the context of your postings. Since I am not alone in this perception, perhaps the wording you are using to express your opinion is not effective in getting your real message out. Saying, "these are your words" does not address the concerns that I and others have. It's a cop out and I've come to expect better from the posters on this board.
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 11:36:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
That would be nice to see. It wooul also be nice to see people respond to what you are saying rather than fly off the handle and deliberately misrepresent what's being said.
And Rubysue, what's bothering me is how you personally attack people here in an unreasonable, unfair way. You are being a bully.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
while there is some amusement value in watching rubysue and gorgo launch nasty ad hominum barbs at each other, its getting old. how long will the two of you continue to beat the same dead horse?
why, as an american, am i alarmed at our government's desire to 1) curtail our right to a free press, 2) push religion on us, 3) fight a war in secret, 4) lie to us on a daily basis, even when such lies are pointless (air force one was a target)? is this necessary or is it the bush administration's desire to be above scrutiny and criticism?
if we want to really get serious about the war against terrorists, thats good. i hope we make a lot of progress. but the us government needs to be consistent. when osama was our boy back when russia was fighting in afganistan, he was a brave freedom fighter, now he is the embodyment of pure evil. he has not changed, but our perspective has. killing russians-good; killing americans-bad.
well terrorism is evil, even if the terrorist is fighting for your side. so lets be a little less sanctimonious. the us made serious errors in supporting afgan and associated terrorists in the past. its time to correct the error and liqidate the taliban and osama's org. but lets also be less hypocritical and quit funding our own terrorist activities (any one recall the "death squads" we supported in latin america under regan and bush I).
it is not un-american to look at our own past and try to learn from our mistakes. self examination is not justification of others bad behavior but an attempt to improve ourselves.
comrade billyboy |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 11:37:35 [Permalink]
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Well, I don't agree with Gorgo either. But that's part of what message boards are about. As I've said before: If we all agreed with each other what would be the point of message boards like this?
I, however, have not talked of appeasement. I have no idea where Rubysue gets this from. I do blame some American policies for what happened and I make no apology for that. As far as I'm concerned it had it's seeds in George Bush Sr.'s failure to remove Saddam Hussein in the first place. The attackm on Sept. 11th would never have happened if not for that.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 11:54:39 [Permalink]
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I have not used any ad hominem attacks against anyone, and I have rarely responded to her much less beat her horse.
quote:
while there is some amusement value in watching rubysue and gorgo launch nasty ad hominum barbs at each other, its getting old. how long will the two of you continue to beat the same dead horse?
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/12/2001 12:05:16 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 12:16:04 [Permalink]
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You live in a black and white world. I don't.
quote:
I still think that the path he was argueing was strictly "American Government is Bad".
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 12:26:45 [Permalink]
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As much as I like to see message traffic on my folder, the posts in this thread have become so off-topic as to be silly. I am locking this thread, to be reopened if any come to me with something constructive to contribute.
-me. |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2001 : 12:32:10 [Permalink]
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I'd rewind the clock to that day in 1948 when the Palestinian Arabs woke up to find the Union Jack had been hauled down and the Star of David raised in it's place. And the Jews and Arabs have been at each other's throats ever since.
The resolution of the "Palestinian Question" has defied every president since Truman. If you look closely at the ravings of Arafat and Sharon you may come to the conclusion that NEITHER of those buffoons want peace. They want control. They have steadfastly thumbed their noses at every peace overture offered by a whole host of diplomats from all over the world. No U.S. foreign policy is right in their eyes. Just how friendly can you get with desert scorpions locked in combat, anyway.
Arafat the terrorist vs. Sharon, the Butcher of Beruit. Good Gawd!
(:raig
Edited by - boron10 on 10/13/2001 22:14:46 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2001 : 22:16:31 [Permalink]
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Well, I meant to just unlock this post due to popular demand, but I ended up accidentally going into Mespo_Man's post. I put it back to (I trust) the way it was before, with my deepest apologies.
-me. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2001 : 00:08:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
The resolution of the "Palestinian Question" has defied every president since Truman. If you look closely at the ravings of Arafat and Sharon you may come to the conclusion that NEITHER of those buffoons want peace. They want control. They have steadfastly thumbed their noses at every peace overture offered by a whole host of diplomats from all over the world.
Is it so much Arafat and Sharon as the religious right in their countries? I know Sharon is more right than his predecessor...however, I think that a few radicals that don't want peace - rather anihilation - that disturb the tentative peace processes. Didn't Clinton nearly have a peace accord between the two, right at the end, until a terrorist bomb blew something up?
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2001 : 08:15:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Didn't Clinton nearly have a peace accord between the two, right at the end, until a terrorist bomb blew something up?
I just thought it was Arafat, not willing to compromise one little bit, that destroyed that effort.
[silly spelling error  ]
------------
And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 10/14/2001 08:16:10 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2001 : 15:36:05 [Permalink]
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No Arafat had made other concessions. Jeruselum was just not going to be one of those concessions. Ditto for Israel. The city in question has been occupied for years and is not really Israel's anyway. You can agree or disagree on that all you want, but ultimately both these religions need to learn to share that city or they will both eventually lose it.
But if Israel doesn't come to it's senses and work it out it's going to eventually be shown just how small a country it is surrounded by enemy Arab states. It's only a matter of time.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2001 : 19:41:58 [Permalink]
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You probably remember this too. But on maps of the region, wasn't the whole gahza strip considered neutral territory - at least by the international community. I may be too young to remember when/how that changed. (So, I'm treading thin ice here.) Was it that Israel or Palestine tried taking that over or was it that Palestinian/Israeli tension in the area exploded? Or was there Palestinian/Israeli tension in the area prior to that?
Or any interesting links that might enlighten me on the subject (meanwhile I will look for my own  ).
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2001 : 20:10:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
You probably remember this too. But on maps of the region, wasn't the whole gahza strip considered neutral territory - at least by the international community. I may be too young to remember when/how that changed. (So, I'm treading thin ice here.) Was it that Israel or Palestine tried taking that over or was it that Palestinian/Israeli tension in the area exploded? Or was there Palestinian/Israeli tension in the area prior to that?
Or any interesting links that might enlighten me on the subject (meanwhile I will look for my own ).
Here's one link you might find useful, Trish: the Encarta article regarding the history of the Gaza strip.
According to it, the area was Palestinian by population prior to WWII. In the 1947 UN partition, it was to be the site of an Arab Palestinian state, but they rejected the proposal. Egypt used it as a staging ground for attacks on Israel; the Israelis took it when Egypt closed the Suez (but gave it up under pressure from the international community). Egypt controlled it, but apparently did nothing to develop it, and did not extend Egyptian citizenship to the Gazans. Israel took it again in the 1967 Six-Day War. Since then, Israel has been annexing pieces of it for settlements, and the intafada has erupted.
Don't know that it was ever 'neutral' as such. Just probably wasn't worth the trouble for any of those (rather poor, at the time) governments to worry over.
Hope this helps. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2001 : 21:21:34 [Permalink]
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Well it appears after reading that article (thanks Z) that both Netenyahu and the Hamas are in part responsible for the break down in peace talks.
Damn, why can't we do away with fundies? (Just my frustration level.)
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2001 : 21:54:37 [Permalink]
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after the 1967 war, when israel occupied the west bank and gaza, and annexxed east jerusalem and the golan heights. likud and its allies built settlemts like crazy in the territories. menachim begin used to refer to the settlemts as "facts on the ground". the price of peace is giving up all of the settlements in the west bank and gaza. the policy of keeping the palistinans in a bantustan-like semi-autonomous region as a source of cheap and docile labor is not working. the situation will get much worse before we see peace.
by the way, I just watched the rapture movie "left behind". very low budget production values but it had some pretty amusing moments.
comrade billyboy |
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