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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
 Posted - 10/14/2001 : 22:09:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
the price of peace is giving up all of the settlements in the west bank and gaza. the policy of keeping the palistinans in a bantustan-like semi-autonomous region as a source of cheap and docile labor is not working. the situation will get much worse before we see peace.
Why can't the gaza strip then elect it's own government? Unless the idea is that all the Israeli's in the region should remove themselves back t Israel. I can ultimately see the problems inherent for Israelites living in the region if a *Palestine* friendly government comes to power, there has to be some fashion in which this can be solved (not that it's been terribly successful in the past). I know that ultimately it comes down to a difference in religious dogmas, but would Israeli's be in that much physical danger should an arab government come into being in the gaza strip? Just trying to figure if this is mostly territorial or religious in nature of if it is some combination of both.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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ZaphodBeeblebrox
Skeptic Friend
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2001 : 22:44:29 [Permalink]
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No Arafat had made other concessions. Jeruselum was just not going to be one of those concessions. Ditto for Israel. The city in question has been occupied for years and is not really Israel's anyway. You can agree or disagree on that all you want, but ultimately both these religions need to learn to share that city or they will both eventually lose it.
The problem with giving East Jerusalem back to the Palestinians, is that they don't want it for any real reason, they just wish to possess it. Much the way a little boy, will steal a little girl's doll. One of the most shocking things, that greeted Israeli Troops, in 1967, was the utter neglect that the city had received, during the several hundred years of Palestinian Rule.
Furthermore, Monotheists in General, and Muslims in Particular have had a very bad track record, when it comes to other religions' things. Between the Christians defacing the Tomb Walls, and the Muslims removing the Case Stones, very little of value, still remains of the Pyramids.
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But if Israel doesn't come to it's senses and work it out it's going to eventually be shown just how small a country it is surrounded by enemy Arab states. It's only a matter of time.
Unfortunately, probably for all concerned, it very possibly is, however, I think that we can still pull back from the Brink, or else we may truly be facing, World War III.
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away.
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 10/14/2001 22:46:53
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 10/14/2001 22:47:38 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 00:19:09 [Permalink]
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The problem with giving East Jerusalem back to the Palestinians, is that they don't want it for any real reason, they just wish to possess it. Much the way a little boy, will steal a little girl's doll.
I see Israel and Palestine both playing this role. I don't care how much one poor nation was able to keep it "up" compared to another. I don't even know if I care if the entire region os engulfed in nuclear annhiliation if that's what they want. I don't see how that's WWIII for anyone but the participants. If the US and a few other world powers keep cool we will have nothing to endure but some fallout. The fallout's still pretty bad but it could be worse. If they all want to die over a stupid old city....let them!
Yeah gas will become super expensive but then it should be anyway.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Hook
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 00:31:47 [Permalink]
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Here is an interesting website I found through another board. I can't find much info on who exactly this is, but whois turns up the domain as belonging to some skeptic society in Amherst NY (just outside Buffalo).
I'm still digesting some of this, but it seems rather relevant to the original topic of this thread and thought I'd post it for others to comment on.
http://www.secularislam.org/call.htm
We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars. |
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ZaphodBeeblebrox
Skeptic Friend
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 01:02:48 [Permalink]
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@tomic, imagine Sarajevo, c. 1913.
Now, imagine it, at least, 10 times worse.
That is the Powder-Keg, that is Jerusalem!
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 02:10:52 [Permalink]
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If Jerusalem were to suddenly blink out of existence how would that lead to Germany attacking anyone? WWII was a lot different than anything to do with Jerusalem. I just don't see how Israel and the Islamic world's tussle over that place has much to do with the US apart from the US feeling a need to prop up Israel for so many years for reasons that make no sense at all to me.
My personal feeling is that maybe there shouldn't have been an Israel in the first place and if there wasn't one we wouldn't have to deal with all this crap now.
So assume some idiot over there detonates a nuclear bomb...how does that bring the major nuclear powers into it? Maybe it's World War III for the people living in the area but that's a long way from where I am. After that they'd have enough trouble just living and terrorism abroad would probably be very difficult. It's not that I want to see any major war over there but we've gone to more than enough trouble in that area just to keep gas cheap.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 02:13:29 [Permalink]
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My personal feeling is that maybe there shouldn't have been an Israel in the first place and if there wasn't one we wouldn't have to deal with all this crap now.
But that wasn't even a US decision - that was a British decision. After all they control Palestine at the end of WWII, and cut Israel out without so much as a by your leave. So we are left with Palestine and Israel.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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ZaphodBeeblebrox
Skeptic Friend
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 02:48:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
If Jerusalem were to suddenly blink out of existence how would that lead to Germany attacking anyone? WWII was a lot different than anything to do with Jerusalem. I just don't see how Israel and the Islamic world's tussle over that place has much to do with the US apart from the US feeling a need to prop up Israel for so many years for reasons that make no sense at all to me.
They begin to make a lot more sense, when you factor in the fact, that 2 Billion People, believe that Jerusalem is the Spiritual Centre, of the Entire World, and the fact that each Half, has elements that range from my own Interested Observer, all the way up to a Fervent Belief, that Destroying the City, is better than letting the other Half, have it.
Add to that, the fact that most of those 2 Billion, believe that World War III, will be fought there anyway, and you have the Recipe, for a, Particularly Nasty, Self-Fulfilling Prophecy.
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 03:30:59 [Permalink]
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Add to that, the fact that most of those 2 Billion, believe that World War III, will be fought there anyway, and you have the Recipe, for a, Particularly Nasty, Self-Fulfilling Prophecy.
Apart from terrorism, I just don't see it. perhaps you were asleep during the gulf war(well it was short)when the US army destroyed one of the largest and well equipped army in a matter of weeks. Who do you see starting this war and who do you see fighting it and with what? I keep hearing all this WWIII talk and just see it as that....talk.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 03:46:03 [Permalink]
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Hey now @tomic - there were others besides the Army! Like, the Marines, Air Force, Navy. 
I wouldn't worry so much about WWIII. I don't think we'll see anything as definitive as *fronts* as we did with the Gulf. This is going to be a mobile dirty war. This war is going to last a long time. By the time it's over - well who knows - maybe we'll have made progress, maybe not.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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