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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 10/15/2001 : 17:24:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
If I accepted this philosophy I would be hard pressed to come up with a rational critique of the genocidal behavior of the Nazis against the Jews during WWII.
Can't you just hate someone? Does there have to be a philosophy behind it?
The Jews weren't the only people to be rounded up by the Nazis. Would one then have to come up with a different rational for each group?
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 17:54:01 [Permalink]
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Thanks TD. I was concerned about that type of response shortly after posting. You covered it rather well. 
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 19:40:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
This, I think, is called bifurcation? (not to mention inflammatory!  ) It is not an all or nothing philosophy. Some morals are much more relative than others, to the point that some morals can be called with all practicality "absolute" (though I don't believe absolute morals exist in reality). Cultural sexuality can be relative. Genocide cannot.
The ethical metatheory of cultural relativism does not have a hierarchical nature, stating that some norms are more relative than others. AFAIK, there is no ethical theory running around doing that. Seems to be it would be difficult to pull off from any given metaethical starting point. Do you think it can be done from a consequentialist standpoint, perhaps?
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
Do you really expect me to understand what the heck you are asking?!  
[Ah, maybe I shouldn't have said "It isn't an all or none philosophy." I really didn't mean to address a particular named philosophy, just the idea behind Trish's post being compared to moral relativism and the Nazis. terg, has anyone ever told you that you might sometimes be way too formal about this stuff? ]
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 10/15/2001 19:43:16
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 10/15/2001 19:48:45 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2001 : 19:46:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Do you think it can be done from a consequentialist standpoint, perhaps?
As your language has gone a bit over my head (not sure if I should be embarrassed about that or not ), I may not be addressing your question, but here goes!
I think some questions of morality have to be dealt with as they arise, and can't be made to fit a preconceived ethical philosophy.
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2001 : 01:34:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
The ethical metatheory of cultural relativism does not have a hierarchical nature, stating that some norms are more relative than others.
Translation: "That idea we've been talking about doesn't say anything about absolutes; that is, there is no way, within that idea, to pick what can be relative and what can be absolute."quote:
AFAIK, there is no ethical theory running around doing that. Seems to be it would be difficult to pull off from any given metaethical starting point. Do you think it can be done from a consequentialist standpoint, perhaps?
Translation: "I really can't think of any idea that does make that kind of distinction. It would be a very tough endeavor; however, this interests me. Could we look at this by only considering the results of such accepted behaviours within each society?"
This, at least, is my interpretation. If I am wrong, please correct me.
-me. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2001 : 06:05:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
The ethical metatheory of cultural relativism does not have a hierarchical nature, stating that some norms are more relative than others.
Translation: "That idea we've been talking about doesn't say anything about absolutes; that is, there is no way, within that idea, to pick what can be relative and what can be absolute."
I thought it was something like this: "The formal theory of Cultural Relativism doesn't have morals that are more or less relative than other morals."
My mistake was giving the impression that I was talking about a formal theory. The formal theory of Cultural Relativism doesn't concern me. All I know is that having sex can be moral or immoral in different societies, but genocide (of the Nazi persuasion; I can think of exceptions to this depending on motive) can only be immoral. /shrug
quote:
quote:
AFAIK, there is no ethical theory running around doing that. Seems to be it would be difficult to pull off from any given metaethical starting point. Do you think it can be done from a consequentialist standpoint, perhaps?
Translation: "I really can't think of any idea that does make that kind of distinction. It would be a very tough endeavor; however, this interests me. Could we look at this by only considering the results of such accepted behaviours within each society?"
Again, I think this is just being overly formal with theories and philosophy and whatnot. I can tell someone what I think about something. If my ideas have been classified under some sort of naming convention or not doesn't hold as much importance to me as it seems to hold for tergiversant. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.  )
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2001 : 10:03:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
The ethical metatheory of cultural relativism does not have a hierarchical nature, stating that some norms are more relative than others. AFAIK, there is no ethical theory running around doing that. Seems to be it would be difficult to pull off from any given metaethical starting point. Do you think it can be done from a consequentialist standpoint, perhaps? ---tergiversant
IMO a person could perhaps believe in the autonomy of another country and use ethical relativism as a fallback ethical philosophy concerning that country, at least when the questions are considered in the gray area. This ‘way of [not] thinking' would fit in with a pragmatic philosophy in which winning is the primary goal and not the search for truth.
quote:
Can't you just hate someone? Does there have to be a philosophy behind it?
The Jews weren't the only people to be rounded up by the Nazis. Would one then have to come up with a different rational for each group? ---Snake
Philosophy ~ 4) The critique and analysis of fundamental beliefs as they come to be conceptualized and formulated.
Relativism is a self-refuting philosophy at it's core is a basic belief that one opinion has the same or equal weight as another, in other words there are no superior epistemological norms, everything is equal. And it goes that if there are no superior ways of thinking then what gives relativism its superiority, why should I accept relativism. So I've been conditioned to attack relativism because I ‘should' be able to defeat it or at least identify its incongruities.
Incidentally you are attempting to relativize philosophy with commonsense. All philosophies can be challenged some can withstand the challenge and stand firm and some cannot.
quote:
I think some questions of morality have to be dealt with as they arise, and can't be made to fit a preconceived ethical philosophy. ---Tokyodreamer
Please forgive me for changing the subject:
If someone supported a right to choose concerning elective abortion in the US could he or she relativize the issue concerning another country like Ireland? --- In other words believe that women have a right to choose in the US and be indifferent to Irish politics.
I say no, because how could you support an Irish movement to give women the right to choose if you didn't disagree with Irish politics in the first place.
This ‘over there' sovereign/autonomous country thing is very confusing. IMO US foreign policy is steeped in pragmatism and basically does when questioned about gray area issues reply with ‘they are a sovereign country' and ‘their rules don't concern us', at least until national security is an issue {ie oil} and then everything becomes ‘vital'.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2001 : 23:56:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
The ethical metatheory of cultural relativism does not have a hierarchical nature, stating that some norms are more relative than others.
Translation: "That idea we've been talking about doesn't say anything about absolutes; that is, there is no way, within that idea, to pick what can be relative and what can be absolute."quote:
AFAIK, there is no ethical theory running around doing that. Seems to be it would be difficult to pull off from any given metaethical starting point. Do you think it can be done from a consequentialist standpoint, perhaps?
Translation: "I really can't think of any idea that does make that kind of distinction. It would be a very tough endeavor; however, this interests me. Could we look at this by only considering the results of such accepted behaviours within each society?"
This, at least, is my interpretation. If I am wrong, please correct me.
-me.
Thanks Boron, appreciate that.
Gees, some people want to get over complicated so they can sound supper intellectual rather then have a conversation. Sheesh!
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2001 : 03:34:07 [Permalink]
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I'm going to wade in here. Marvin, strange sexual practices in an area with a different set of customs/culture (whatever the hell you want to call it) does not potentially threaten the survival of the species (Somehow this sounds really familiar to me - like I used this reasoning recently - but can't remember where.) Anyway, genocide, or the atrocities committed (as in the case of the Nazis) does pose a potential serious threat. Tho, not necessarily to the species as much as the evolution of specific societies.
Or, the slaughter of millions can be considered as anathema to the survival of society.
Make of it what you will - sexual practices from other cultures probably don't impact us [Americans/Western Civ] as much as you imply.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2001 : 13:07:59 [Permalink]
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I say "boy-rapers" and you say "strange sexual practices" --- well IMO anyone who supports US laws against "boy-rapers" should support that same ethic for other countries. At the very least as a concept of how it should be. I am placing genocide and child-sex in the same category. Incidentally I could conceive, hypothetically, of a way to 'justify' genocide, however not the action of "boy-rape", in other words, I realize that 'it' exists in almost every society and I would not recommend taking any unnecessary risks to force US ethics on any foreign culture, I would choose to speak out against it, rather then ignore it.
"Make of it what you will - sexual practices from other cultures probably don't impact us [Americans/Western Civ] as much as you imply." ---Trish
Gonorrhea, syphilis, AIDS --- Ok cheep shot  --- I agree my implication was perhaps overdramatic. I still don't like ethical relativism or saying, 'I don't care what you do, it's none of my business', I would choose to say, 'I do care what you do, even though it's none of my business'
Snake,
Here's a present for you.
Be sure and click all the links. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2001 : 21:23:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gonorrhea, syphilis, AIDS --- Ok cheep shot --- I agree my implication was perhaps overdramatic. I still don't like ethical relativism or saying, 'I don't care what you do, it's none of my business', I would choose to say, 'I do care what you do, even though it's none of my business'
You've put words in my mouth here. I've never said I don't care what you do. I've said judging based on Western perspectives is perhaps a bit ethnocentric.
I could suppose then you support *blue light laws*.
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2001 : 21:38:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake,
Here's a present for you.
While I love to get gifts, and it's not even my birthday, I don't click on links when I don't know what they are or who they are from. Nothing personal.
Thanks anyway. I'm sure I would have enjoyed it.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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ZaphodBeeblebrox
Skeptic Friend
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2001 : 23:44:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
At the very least as a concept of how it should be.
Isn't that a book by Rush Limbaugh?
quote:
Incidentally I could conceive, hypothetically, of a way to 'justify' genocide, however not the action of "boy-rape", in other words, I realize that 'it' exists in almost every society and I would not recommend taking any unnecessary risks to force US ethics on any foreign culture, I would choose to speak out against it, rather then ignore it.
Here is a paper, on the Origin of Human Sexual Seletion. While it does not provide a Solution, it does contain an Analysis, of the Selection Pressures that could produce it. Neoteny and Two-Way Sexual Selection in Human Evolution Enjoy. 
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away.
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 10/17/2001 23:44:49
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 10/17/2001 23:46:10 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2001 : 09:32:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
I say "boy-rapers" and you say "strange sexual practices" --- well IMO anyone who supports US laws against "boy-rapers" should support that same ethic for other countries.
Good grief, have none of you kids spent any time in the "World of Islam"?
I have, I'm sorry to say.
They are constantly buggering little boys and GOATS. They keep women locked up under house arrest because they are women. And they walk around shooting off guns just for the hell of it.
These folks aren't crazy because they have disgusting deviant sexual practices. They have disgusting deviant sexual practices because they are crazy.
Don't look at me like that TD, it's only xenophobic if it isn't true. After spending this last week in Manhattan I'm no longer particularly inclined to be politically correct about these troglodyte bastards. (Sometime remind me to tell you about the "hand morgue" I visited in lower Manhattan--where they are taking the finger prints from scores of severed hands, desperately trying to identify their owners)
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2001 : 10:11:17 [Permalink]
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…So a cultural norm in one society may be viewed as an evil by another society. The judgement isn't ours to make, no matter our perspective on it. If it is normal in that cultured, then it is acceptable there, where it will become unacceptable for someone of that descent is when they move into a culture/society where the practice is not acceptable. ---Trish
The judgement isn't ours to make, no matter our perspective on it = 'I don't care what you do, it's none of my business' --- Well just a few words, seems fairly close. 
You've put words in my mouth here. I've never said I don't care what you do. I've said judging based on Western perspectives is perhaps a bit ethnocentric. ---Trish
Sorry for putting words in your mouth. Would you please stop changing the focus from the specific to the general.
Is it ethnocentric of me to postulate that ‘boy-rape' is ethically wrong anywhere on earth? |
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