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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 10/19/2001 : 10:06:22 [Permalink]
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Hmm, how to put this. The only thing I'm saying is he's making a judgement based on his views. Right or wrong - I don't know.
Yeah?…so?
But you aren't actually expressing neutrality even though you may be advocating it.
Of course he is stating his own opinions, were he expressing someone else's he would have given that person credit--as he did in the first blurb. You are implying that his opinions aren't valid because he is from a different culture (race?) as those he is speaking of. You cover yourself by saying "Right or wrong- I don't know." But I don't buy that. I've been reading your posts for months, you are anything but ego-centric. If you don't have an opinion on something you simply don't make comment on it. And this you do comment on.
I'm adding this - since this post has dredged this up… contemplate
slitting my arms from the elbow to the wrist… Damn you Slater for sending me down this road.
I've got a scar from a knife wound that goes from my right elbow to my hand. It was given to me by a Moslem Fundi in Kalimantan near Bandjarmasin on the island of Borneo during the late 60's. He didn't like my white face and thought he could secure a place in paradise for himself by Xing an American (and I'd only been an American for a few months, just my luck) (@tomic wanted to know what references I based my theories on. No scholarly tomes or esoteric web sites--I lived with the brutal sons of bitches)
You have to learn to focus these emotions. Anger works very well as a focusing agent.
I was talking to a woman here in SF about the drastic changes I had seen in my son last week as opposed to 2 months ago (strangely enough my daughter, who was in the WTC, isn't changed at all) He's put on about 20 lbs. of muscle from digging out "ground zero" and he's aged about ten years. She wanted to know what sort of "emotional counciling" he and the other cops were getting. She was surprised when I told her that they didn't want any.
Here's a quote from the 17th Edition of the Bluejackets Manual that deals with this type of stress.
quote:
Giving way to panic or despair is a certain way to kill yourself
Emotional effects of shipwreck-
A man may stand still and weep or scream for help…or become sick at his stomach…A man may become pale, tense, and agitated, and may stutter…a man may become delirious or may exhibit behavior dangerous to himself and others. He may suddenly attack other men in the party….
A man noting in himself any of the symptoms described above must "snap out of it." Morose or hopeless thoughts, once started, grow rapidly worse and harder to overcome.
"Snap out of it"--sounds so antiquated and unfeeling, like something out of a black and white movie. But, you know, it's damn good advice. It demands that you will get up on your own two feet after a catastrophe and do your duty.
And you will
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SNAP OUT OF IT! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2001 : 10:09:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Lot of NAMBLA boosters around here.
Don't mistake my questions as being a reflection on how I feel about something. I reserve the right to be hypocritical in my philosophical vs. practical ideas.
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2001 : 10:25:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
What about the goat fucking?
What are the societal and personal (to both the fucker and fuckee) consequences of goat fucking?
It's pretty crazy behavior, but then I think rock climbing without any ropes is crazy behavior. Should I really be more worried about the goat fucker?
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2001 : 10:29:27 [Permalink]
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Slater, you may have met and dealt with the worst elements of Islam but I have met some good ones. Years ago I had a relationship with a Pakistani woman(living in the USA), I used to work with a member of the Afghan royal family and knew some other Afghans. They all lived in the US and loved it here. All Arabs are not bloodthirsty killers bent on killing Americans. Obviously there are some but it's not fair to pigeonhole them all into that narrow stereotype.
The problem with the US policy of propping up dictatorships in the middle east is that it creates a lot of hate towards Americans that might not make the average Arab kill Americans but might make them silently cheer the exploits of terrorists.
They will also be more likely to aid terrorists and give various forms of support whether that means sending money or just giving shelter to them.
Cleaning up US policies won't eliminate terrorists but it will significantly reduce the number of people supporting them and reduce the number of people willing to become martyrs. Failure to do this means we will fail to stop terrorism and we will see more and more Americans die.
We've been doing things the other way so long and seen it fail so badly that we should give some alternatives a try.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2001 : 10:42:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Is it only Western Standards that are against ‘boy-rape'?
No, but it is only, so-called Western Thought, that has so Demonized, even Routine Sexual Practices, that anything, even remotely different, is Vilified as Unethical, and even, horrors, Wrong!
Moreover, I think that you'll find that in most Middle Eastern Cultures, your so-called, Boy-Rape, is little more than 20-something Men, having sex with 16 year old Boys. Activity that we would think nothing, or very little of, were the 16 year old Female.
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away. ---ZaphodBeeblebrox
Well here it goes:
My perceived righteous indignation about ‘boy-rape' is equal to or less than, a gay/bi American man's righteous indignation concerning his right to choose. If and {it's a big if} ‘boy-rape' is occurring in Saudi Arabia then some boys are being forced/coerced into sex, their choice is being made for them. --- IMO this is wrong.
boy ~ A male child, from birth to the age of puberty.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996
In my opinion ‘boy' would be twelve or younger and ‘rape' would mean forced or coerced {ie food, shelter, clothing, religion}
quote:
This so-called "boy-rape" is considered wrong because of the supposed consequences to the boys afterward, correct?
What if in certain societies, it was normal and accepted (i.e. Ancient Greece), and there weren't any detrimental psychological effects? Is it still immoral?
(Not making a claim that this is the case, just asking an hypothetical...) ---Tokyodreamer
I consider ‘boy-rape' unethical because it takes away free choice and anyone that causes pain to a boy for personal pleasure is unethical behavior. However I have yet to find any empirical evidence connecting severe sex abuse to sociopathic behavior {specifically suicidal terrorists} --- Now the Greek pederasty argument is interesting, IMO it appears to be institutionalized male bonding and I've just started reading about it.
“Pederasty was from the beginning both physical and emotional, the highest and most intense type of male bonding. These pederastic bonds, Percy believes, were responsible for the rise of Hellas and the "Greek miracle": in two centuries the population of Attica, a mere 45,000 adult males in six generations, produced an astounding number of great men who laid the enduring foundations of Western thought and civilization.” ---Pederasty and Pedagogy in Archaic Greece
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If you think you're being judged by me - that's not my point or what I was attempting. It's not a justification of what they are doing either. Hell, I don't know what it is - it's their fucking culture whether I agree or not.
Additionally, I should be the last person to judge another - I've yet to judge myself. ---Trish
Trish I'm not in any position of power, my judgement of anything doesn't mean very much. I can't conceive of not being able to render an ethical opinion concerning the intentional infliction of pain on a ‘boy', now if bitten by a black mamba chop off the appendage immediately to do less would be unethical or perhaps emotionally immature.
In Elements of Moral Philosophy James Rachels attacks moral rela |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2001 : 11:49:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
In my opinion ‘boy' would be twelve or younger and ‘rape' would mean forced or coerced {ie food, shelter, clothing, religion}
I consider ‘boy-rape' unethical because it takes away free choice and anyone that causes pain to a boy for personal pleasure is unethical behavior.
I agree completely.
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2001 : 11:58:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
In Elements of Moral Philosophy James Rachels attacks moral relativism arguing that there is in fact a core set of values that are common to all societies and are in fact necessary for any society to exist.
(1) we should care for children
(2) we should tell the truth
(3) we should not murder
These are so broad and generalized, that I don't see how they could possibly be a basis for arguing againt moral relativism.
There are so many specific cases where these "core values" simply don't work.
What if there arose a situation in which in order to "care" for a group of children, some of those children had to suffer in order for the majority to not suffer?
There are innumerable examples of when telling the truth is not the best course of action. I'm sure you don't need me to come up with any, as it should be quite simple.
And as for murder, there are so many different definitions that again, I don't understand how you could base a philosophical argument on it.
Maybe I should ask you this: If a so-called "absolute" value has even one exception, can it still be absolute, or does that tell us that the value is relative? Maybe this is where my thinking is wrong...
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2001 : 14:53:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater, you may have met and dealt with the worst elements of Islam but I have met some good ones... I used to work with a member of the Afghan royal family and knew some other Afghans. They all lived in the US and loved it here. All Arabs are not bloodthirsty killers bent on killing Americans. Obviously there are some but it's not fair to pigeonhole them all into that narrow stereotype.
Indeed it is not fair to pigeonhole a people because of a narrow sterotype.
The sterotype I am referring to however are kings and princes, westernized engineers and scientists. Hardly the every day Joe six pack of the Arab world. These university educated, Americanised, wealthy Afgans were pleasant to you? I'm not surprised--they aren't the people we are at war with.
If the US is the villain you make it out to be wouldn't you expect the Royals and the educated to hate it too?
All Arabs are not such nice folk as these, a goodly number are "bloodthirsty killers bent on killing Americans" (My daughter and I have the scars to prove it). To exonerate the guilty because there are some who are innocent of the same race is a bizarre form of racial prejudice.
There is a large group that wants you dead. You @tomic, and your family. There is another group that wishes you no harm at all. Just because these two groups are of the same race you want to lump them together. This is about philosophy not race. If you had met those who hold this anti-white race philosophy you would not have walked away with such a high opinion of them.
You might not have walked away at all.
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SNAP OUT OF IT! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2001 : 15:06:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Should I really be more worried about the goat fucker?
You are equating sports with bestiality?
Since the goat fuckers are insane and have said that they consider every man woman and child in America a fair target--and since that includes YOU. Since there are still over four thousand rotting corpses in the still burning rubble in lower Manhattan--and not one of them was killed by a rock climber.
And, by the way, if you are going to have a barbeque (considering your les affaires attitude towards livestock) I'm afraid that I can't make it.
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Where is the ASPCA when you need it?
Edited by - slater on 10/19/2001 15:11:47 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2001 : 15:33:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yeah?…so?
But you aren't actually expressing neutrality even though you may be advocating it.
Of course he is stating his own opinions, were he expressing someone else's he would have given that person credit--as he did in the first blurb. You are implying that his opinions aren't valid because he is from a different culture (race?) as those he is speaking of. You cover yourself by saying "Right or wrong- I don't know." But I don't buy that. I've been reading your posts for months, you are anything but ego-centric. If you don't have an opinion on something you simply don't make comment on it. And this you do comment on.
Good point Slater. I'll have to think about it. I don't think judgements from a different perspective are always just. A set of rules is implied that the other may not have heard of.
quote:
You have to learn to focus these emotions. Anger works very well as a focusing agent.
I was talking to a woman here in SF about the drastic changes I had seen in my son last week as opposed to 2 months ago (strangely enough my daughter, who was in the WTC, isn't changed at all) He's put on about 20 lbs. of muscle from digging out "ground zero" and he's aged about ten years. She wanted to know what sort of "emotional counciling" he and the other cops were getting. She was surprised when I told her that they didn't want any.
Here's a quote from the 17th Edition of the Bluejackets Manual that deals with this type of stress.
quote:
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Giving way to panic or despair is a certain way to kill yourself
Emotional effects of shipwreck-
A man may stand still and weep or scream for help…or become sick at his stomach…A man may become pale, tense, and agitated, and may stutter…a man may become delirious or may exhibit behavior dangerous to himself and others. He may suddenly attack other men in the party….
A man noting in himself any of the symptoms described above must "snap out of it." Morose or hopeless thoughts, once started, grow rapidly worse and harder to overcome.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Snap out of it"--sounds so antiquated and unfeeling, like something out of a black and white movie. But, you know, it's damn good advice. It demands that you will get up on your own two feet after a catastrophe and do your duty.
And you will
----
SNAP OUT OF IT!
Yeah, I will snap out of it. Probably not before I have a clue as to WTF is going with a lot of things. I drug myself out of this emotional morass once and I can/will do it again. I'm on the edge of a really hysterical outburst, and I hate those in myself. So, I don't know.
quote:
Trish I'm not in any position of power, my judgement of anything doesn't mean very much. I can't conceive of not being able to render an ethical opinion concerning the intentional infliction of pain on a ‘boy', now if bitten by a black mamba chop off the appendage immediately to do less would be unethical or perhaps emotionally immature.
In Elements of Moral Philosophy James Rachels attacks moral relativism arguing that there is in fact a core set of values that are common to all societies and are in fact necessary for any society to exist.
(1) we should care for children
(2) we should tell the truth
(3) we should not murder
I don't actually see any reason to expand these very bas |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2001 : 17:28:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Indeed it is not fair to pigeonhole a people because of a narrow sterotype.
The sterotype I am referring to however are kings and princes, westernized engineers and scientists. Hardly the every day Joe six pack of the Arab world. These university educated, Americanised, wealthy Afgans were pleasant to you? I'm not surprised--they aren't the people we are at war with.
If the US is the villain you make it out to be wouldn't you expect the Royals and the educated to hate it too?
All Arabs are not such nice folk as these, a goodly number are "bloodthirsty killers bent on killing Americans" (My daughter and I have the scars to prove it). To exonerate the guilty because there are some who are innocent of the same race is a bizarre form of racial prejudice.
There is a large group that wants you dead. You @tomic, and your family. There is another group that wishes you no harm at all. Just because these two groups are of the same race you want to lump them together. This is about philosophy not race. If you had met those who hold this anti-white race philosophy you would not have walked away with such a high opinion of them.
I don't buy this slater and I'll tell you why: It's obvious that these terrorists don't hate those that are just different. They hate Americans and not just anyone. Why is it that the US is the great satan and not Denmark or Spain or Brazil? Until you can answer that I would hold off on the "they just hate us because we're different" talk. The real causes of our problems are certainly more complex than you say. And the solutions will be just as difficult. But we will never even begin to work towards a real solution unless we identify the real issues.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2001 : 22:13:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
But we will never even begin to work towards a real solution unless we identify the real issues.
You seem to be working on the misconception that we, that is the United States, have done someting wrong, which has made these nice Muslems a little miffed at us. If we could only understand them then everything would be alright and they wouldn't hurt us any more.
GET REAL.
If you can, pick up a copy of todays New York Times and, in the B section, read "Anti-Western and Extremist Views Pervade Saudi Schools" by Neil MacFarquhar and "Influential American Muslems Temper Their Tone" by Laurie Goodstein
These pieces make my writing seem like Pollyanna.
These bastards are such a threat to the world that even President Jiang Zemin of China is teaming up with us.
It's time you started looking at what the "real" issues are and dropped parroting the propaganda of these enemies of mankind.
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Screw your courage to the sticking place
--Lady Macbeth
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2001 : 22:41:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
If you can, pick up a copy of todays New York Times and, in the B section, read "Anti-Western and Extremist Views Pervade Saudi Schools" by Neil MacFarquhar and "Influential American Muslems Temper Their Tone" by Laurie Goodstein
This is what I am talking about. This sentiment is because of the US supporting what amount to dictatorships. This is where the terrorists get their fodder. If the US started supporting democracy in the region there would be fewer and fewer people to draw from. Eventually they would even seem like terrorists to the general population rather than heroes. But now they are viewed as heroes because of the hate generated from years of poor US foreign policy choices.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ZaphodBeeblebrox
Skeptic Friend
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2001 : 02:33:39 [Permalink]
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Isn't supporting a Democracy, part of what got us into this mess
But, if it's Arab, and Muslim, Democracy that you're talking about, then the United Arab Emirates, could point the way to a possible solution.
They have a Voting System, and a some-what Free Press, and while you do have to be a part of the Nobility, to Vote, they do make up almost half of the Population. It compares quite favourably to England, upon the Conclusion of their Civil War, when Parliment, after having seized Power too quickly and Autocratically, went back to Consolidating Power slowly, and more Methodically. It all finally led to the UK, that we so Love, and Cherish!
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away.
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 10/20/2001 02:34:05
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 10/20/2001 02:35:42 |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2001 : 08:17:29 [Permalink]
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“There are so many specific cases where these "core values" simply don't work.
Maybe I should ask you this: If a so-called "absolute" value has even one exception, can it still be absolute, or does that tell us that the value is relative? Maybe this is where my thinking is wrong...” ---Tokyodreamer
Wow…the term “absolute” did not appear in my previous post.
The term “should” was used. --- Yes it is impossible to go through one day with lying to others or ‘yourself', psychologically speaking that is, and yes a wild animal breaks into your hut and you run screaming out the other door --- Giving up your child so you may live another day. Also the definitions of: murder v killing v self-defense v jealous-rage; all actions are defensible however not all excuses are equally valid.
Because absolute truth doesn't exist or cannot be proven, is not a good enough reason to relativize all truth, all knowledge or all ethical values.
Show me a tribe with the core values of: murder is ok, lying is ok, mistreating children is ok; and I'll show you a demoralized group of psychopaths.  |
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