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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
 Posted - 07/02/2005 : 13:36:56
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It's unusual to find so much bullshit in one place (outside of Dr? Dino's place of course) as you find here courtesy of one JB Williams.
quote:
America is and has always been One Nation Under God. Though the founders used generic terms like Creator to describe that God, the God they meant was their God, of the Christian faith. Atheists and agnostics have long argued that many of the founders were deists, using Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, Hamilton, and Madison as proof. However, in each of these cases, a study of their personal writings will debunk the myth.
Ohhhh-kay.
After a bunch of misinterpreted out-of-context quotes, JB finishes up with:
quote:
The point is this - it is historically indisputable that America was born One Nation under God. It does not require faith, but instead common logic to understand why. Men without a moral compass are incapable of long-term self-governance. The founders knew it because they had seen it. Few modern Americans have experienced what life would be like in a godless society, void of morality, so they question it. Many Americans place their trust in man over God, so they pursue it.
But there is no question what America was, is, should be or must be in order to retain its position of strength as the freest nation of self-governed individuals on earth. We will either be free as One Nation under God, or we will be a nation of fools unaware of our common heritage and on the road to ruin under men in search of power. One does not have to be a Christian to understand this. One must only understand man and his insatiable hunger for power.
Those in search of that power must remove God from society in order to gain access to that power. Those who allow them, do so at their own peril. You are of course free to not like this simple truth. But this truth will never change. It is as it has always been and shall always be.
Sheesh. Why do people think that belief in their chosen imaginary friend is the only path to morality? And I really dislike when they try to force it on the rest of us.
[Moved to the Religion folder - Dave W.]
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
 Posted - 07/02/2005 : 17:14:03 [Permalink]
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I have never been religious and have therefore been saved from such imbecilic moraliing by such silly true believers.
ljbrs |
"Innumerable suns exist; innumerable earths revolve about these suns in a manner similar to the way the seven planets revolve around our sun. Living beings inhabit these worlds."
Giordano Bruno
(Burned at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church Inquisition in 1600) |
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2005 : 11:51:55 [Permalink]
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If the founding fathers meant Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus, they would have said so. Enough of them set foot in churches within their lifetimes that they would have known exactly which terminogy to use if they wanted to indicate that this was the one specific flavor of religion on their minds.
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trish |
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skepticality
Skeptic Friend
USA
105 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2005 : 16:04:07 [Permalink]
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There are WAYY too many books and writings by our Founding Fathers that make this type of thing Bull-Bollocks...
It peeves me when folks twist history, especially one so well documented.
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Derek Colanduno
host - skepticality
http://www.skepticality.com/ |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2005 : 00:29:53 [Permalink]
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It is also bizarre that some of these religious groups believe they are being "persecuted" by not getting to shove their religion down the rest of our throats. Apparently being persecuted is in these days. |
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2005 : 11:43:16 [Permalink]
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| Or if not shove their religious preferences down our throats, then up our..... |
trish |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2005 : 17:43:03 [Permalink]
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I am currently reading a book entitled "Under God: Religion and American Politics" by Garry Wills. Though it was written in 1990, it seems to have much insight about the influence that evangelicals have on politics in America.
I was slightly turned off in the intro when he mentioned that all US Presidents have been Christians, but if we are truly skeptical, let's look at the claims that secular orgs make on that matter. The Freedom From Religion Foundation (a wonderful group, certainly) claims that these Presidents were not Christians:
"John Adams, John Q. Adams, Millard Fillmore, and William H. Taft were Unitarians. Jefferson was a Deist/Freethinkers. Harrison, Johnson, Grant and Hayes were not members of a church. Lincoln was a Deist.
The FFRF admits that some Unitarians at the time considered themselves Christian, but not in any sort of traditional sense."
My stance on the religion of the presidents is this: 1.) Who cares what their personal religious beliefs were? On many we can find different statements that suggest different things and who knows how their beliefs might have changed over time or how often they said things for political or social reasons. 2.) More importantly - Did the Christian American voters tend to ASSUME that these guys were Christian? Was it an issue at all when they were running for office? If not, the point is mute.
In the intro to "Under God", Garry Wills makes this, IMHO, profound statement:
"If we neglect the religious element in all those struggles (he's referring to public policy), we cannot understand our own corporate past; we cannot even talk meaningfully to each other about things that will affect us all."
My point is (if you're still wondering) that it's essential to voice our concerns about public policy in a strong and positive manner, rather than just being critical of religion, because believe if or not, the majority of evangelicals are not fundamentalists, and many of their conservative opinions on certain issues are based in false info and ignorance. If we just debate with them over petty things like whether Jefferson was an deist or not, we only alienate a huge voter block in America. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/08/2005 17:46:35 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2005 : 22:41:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
because believe if or not, the majority of evangelicals are not fundamentalists,
22% of the population of the USA believes that are living in the end times, and will not die a natural death but instead be "raptured" to heaven within their current lifetimes.
Another 22% believe the same thing, but within 50 or so years.
If you believe that you or your children are going to be raptured, you are a fundamentalist.
If (can't remember the stats on this one, so making a guess on what I think I remember.... heh) 75% (or 85%, damn foggy brain...) of the people here are christian, and 44% of the country are fundamentalists christians... I think that makes the majority of christians fundies, not just the majority of evangelicals.
quote:
My point is (if you're still wondering) that it's essential to voice our concerns about public policy in a strong and positive manner, rather than just being critical of religion,
I agree, to a point. When religion is the basis for bad policy, it needs to be pointed out as well.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2005 : 03:12:58 [Permalink]
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Posted by Marfknoxquote:
If we just debate with them over petty things like whether Jefferson was an deist or not, we only alienate a huge voter block in America.
I believe that it is very important to offer people a version of history that their upbringing hid from them. I feel it is extremely important to give folks a choice--To allow them to hear truth.
Now, I'm not saying that we should be Evangelical about our belief system. I'm saying that we should quietly, respectfully and unapologetically offer up the facts. Afterwards, I would be content to let the matter drop and let the good Theist have the last word.
I don't think anyone should argue over such matters. That really is alienating in most cases. People in the west are taught from birth to believe in some sort of divine manifestation. This belief system is simply accepted as normal in most cases. Without an opposing view, there's no reason to question, because, believe it or not, most folks just ain't skeptics and freethinkers.
There's no reason to think that they will decide to study the facts for themselves without a little shove in the right direction.
Posted by R.Wreckquote:
Why do people think that belief in their chosen imaginary friend is the only path to morality?
Because they're told that by the authoritative representatives of thier imaginary friend...And, if there's a question about morality, just check the numbers by belief system within our prisons. I'll bet that the non-theists are very much under represented, even if we used percentages in comparison to national averages. If I remember correctly, about ten percent of the USA is comprised of non-theists. Whereas, less than one percent comprise our prison population. (If I remember, I'll post the link to that study when I get off work in a few more days) |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2005 : 23:16:34 [Permalink]
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I'd love to know where that 22%/22% and 44% statistic came from. When and how was the survey done? According to adherents.com based on various surveys, as of 2001 the largest branch of Christianity was Catholics at 24.5%. While just over 50% of the population was protestant, that counts pretty much every Christian who's not Catholic. Of the protestant sects that often produce fundamentalists, here were the numbers: Baptists 16.3%, Methodists 6.8%, Lutheran 4.6%, Pentacostal 2.1%, Episcopalian 1.7%. All those added together equals less than 32%, and not all of the adherents in those sects are fundamentalists. I've also heard that somewhere between 20-25% of Americans are fundamentalists, which would correspond with these stats on adherents.com
Anyway, I never advocated that we not vocalize opposition to fundamentalist ways of thinking, only that we focus on the positive (what we are advocating and why it is better and more moral) rather than the negative (why they are wrong). |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2005 : 22:11:51 [Permalink]
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>> 22% of the population of the USA believes that are living in the end times, and will not die a natural death but instead be "raptured" to heaven within their current lifetimes.
>> Another 22% believe the same thing, but within 50 or so years.
There would be overlap there, since lots of the people in the first group think they'll still be alive in 50 years. And since that's what you're using to define "fundamentalist", this statement: "and 44% of the country are fundamentalists christians..." is inaccurate. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/10/2005 22:13:24 |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
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Topic Locked
