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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
 Posted - 10/13/2001 : 12:40:15
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I would like to apologize to most of the people on this board for letting my emotions take charge of my intellect. I am an unreasoning “bully” and I freely admit it; I prefer to think that I have the “courage of my convictions”, but it does come on a wee bit strong at times. I reserve the right not to extend this apology to everyone, however, because I've been literally butting my head against the wall desperately trying to understand what fuels some of the ideas that have been brought forward in this forum and I still see no rational reason to EVER buy into those ideas or leave them unchallenged. As I've stated earlier, the precious freedom to express an opinion is, of course, tempered by extending that same freedom to others to challenge and even condemn those opinions.
In the last month, I have read editorials, opinions, commentary and treatises from the radical left to the wacko right (and most points in between) in an attempt to understand the “root causes” of what happened on September 11 (and what may still happen; this ain't over by a long shot). In this journey, I've discovered a lot about my preconceived notions of my political coordinate system, which was bounded by those opinion-makers that I usually agreed with prior to that date (somewhat left of center) and the ones that I now agree with (at least on this subject), who are more right of center. This has been surprisingly liberating and in the process I have established a new “coordinate system” that has discarded the notion that I must reject opinions that didn't fit my position on the political spectrum, even if I “secretly” agreed with those opinions. I can now say that I'm a true political iconoclast.
Now, I would like to specifically address two persons on this board with whom I have, unfortunately, established an adversarial relationship (the fault for this is not mine alone, by the way, and I refuse to accept the complete blame for the situation).
Atomic: You and I have not seen “eye-to-eye” on this subject since September 11. Your posts are usually quite short and sometimes it's difficult to derive the meaning of what you are saying from the few short sentences that you make. You have, however, been blaming American foreign policy for this atrocity since the first day and, in some cases (IMHO), shown a surprising lack of empathy for the victims. I have agreed with you that our foreign policy should probably be addressed at some point in this process, but I would caution that an overt and public change in our approach to these “poor, misunderstood” people at this time plays directly into the hands of the current terrorists and does nothing but encourage future terrorism. If terrorists see that their actions get the results that they desire, then that will be the order of the day and we can expect these kinds of actions forever. I personally believe, from everything that I've read, that we have done a hell of a lot more in our history to effect positive change across the world, but the mistakes have been glaring and deserve quiet analysis and change that is, in no way, seen as a direct response to the events that have occurred. I don't really think you are an appeaser, by the way. I also have no idea how to establish a more genial relationshipwith you at this point (and maybe it's not worth trying). This is your board and you are within your rights to ban my participation.
Gorgo: I really can't understand where you are coming from; you are very similar to some of the “difficult posters” who have taken over the BABB on occasion (as was noted on more than one occasion in this forum by different people). I have begun to assume that there are two Gorgos, one who posts vicious anti-American diatribes (including the advocacy of violence on our own government) and the one who says “I never said that”. I've read many of the links that you have posted and am, quite frankly, completely unimpressed with the naivete and moral weakness (and cowardice
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/13/2001 : 19:59:26 [Permalink]
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I have no adversarial relationships with anyone that I know of. I don't understand you either, and if you think I'm attacking you in any way, please let me know, and I'll do what I can to rectify it. I don't think I've asked that anyone be attacked, as far as I know.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2001 : 11:14:45 [Permalink]
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I can't resist. Such a "aw shucks, what have I done" answer deserves a response.
Here are some previous gems from you, Gorgo, lifted directly from your posts under a variety of topics. I brought these forward before you could go back and edit your words:
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Because the U.S. is above the law. The U.S. does not wish to conform to the same standards that it expects others to conform.
It is the largest terrorist nation on earth.
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I'm sure I'll be satisfied when someone explains some things to me.
I missed the part where it says that George Bush is emperor and the U.S. should go in and bomb whatever country they feel like bombing. Is that the part that's been discussed for years? By whom? Wolf Blitzer?
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Yes, it is murder. I have no control over Saddam Hussein. As citizens, we are supposed to have some control over what our government does. To stop murdering and terrorizing people would improve things.
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We had a former Attorney General of the United States hold a tribunal in New York in 1992, with lawyers and former judges and human rights workers, former legislators and miliary and union people. Not a word about it in any newspaper or television news program. They found the U.S. administration guilty of war crimes. Not a legal trial, just a show trial, as those who were accused did not wish to attend. If they couldn't even get a word in the corporate media, I don't imagine that this level of fundamentalist thought will be cracked much be me.
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I understand that in the heat of the moment. However, we have time to think. I think it's time to stop and think and ask ourselves who we want to be. Do we want to continue to be the largest terrorist nation on earth, or do we want to set an example?
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As I've said in other forums here, if we are serious about ending terrorism, we need to be serious about ending U.S. terrorism. If we are serious about "rounding up" terrorists, then we need to start rounding up U.S. terrorists.
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I appreciate all the remarks, but we're not going to get anywhere if we keep talking about "mistakes" in foreign policy. The policy against Iraq is genocide. These are not mistakes. The millions that died in Southeast Asia and Korea at the hands of the U.S. are not "mistakes." This is murder.
The invasion of Panama (with resultant "collateral damage")was no more ethical than the invasion of Kuwait. These are not "mistakes" they are crimes against humanity.
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Going back in history to resolution 678, the UN Security Council (not the U.N.) was bribed and threatened by the U.S. to begin acting against Iraq without having first negotiated, which is against the UN charter.
It is against the UN charter and the Geneva Convention to target civilian populations, which the U.S. has done. The US has manipulated the sanctions, holding up necessary supplies and continues a terrorist bombing campaign.
To go back to Panama, this terrorist action violated several treaties, and was condemned by the UN General Assembly, not just the 15 member Security Council.
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To think that corporate-funded NPR is any more free than any other corporate media, is of course ridiculous, and I fully agree with all that you've said. Those that think superstitious actions like waving flags and bombing farmers will solve problems are not unlike the Creationists.
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You are the only one using the words blame and demons. All that I've said is that if you care about bringing terrorists to justice, you'd better start with Henry Kissinger, Bill Clinton and the Bushes George.
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I'm sure that the U.S. has helped many people. They've also murdered millions.
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Mistakes? There are mistakes, yes. Somewhere around two million dead in Iraq is no mistake. It was intentional. Millions dead in Southeast Asia and Korea. No mistake. Intentional. Thousands tortured and killed with U.S. support in Latin America? No mistake. Intentional.
What is the logic behind the idea that the crimes of others excuse U.S. crimes? I can't quite grasp that one.
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I don't have any clear way of knowing if it will help, but if you're going to start this battle of "good and evil," and bomb every terrorist and all "collateral damage" within a thousand miles of every terrorist, then you'd better start bombing D.C. tomorrow.
Now, tell us again that you "never said these things". These are quite the violent quotations from someone who claims to be in favor of "peace" as a member of a War Resistors League (also known in many circles as institutionalized cowardice).
I've started down this "ad homimen" path, according to you and Atomic, so I might as well finish it. By the way, I retract my apology; in reviewing these topics to find Gorgo quotes, I found exchanges that were m |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2001 : 12:40:16 [Permalink]
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So, what part of this do you think deserves the Stalinist phrase, "vicious Anti-American diatribe?" Do you live in such a black and white world that because someone criticizes some aspects of U.S. foreign policy that they are "vicious" Anti-Americans? I am very Pro-American or I wouldn't give a shit about those policies which are incredibly criminal. Why are you so "viciously" pro-criminal? In which part of these quotes do you see me begging anyone to attack anyone?
You confuse your anger with reasonable thought. While George Bush belittles us with visions of battles against "good and evil" you lap it up and condemn me for asking him to use reason and restrain himself to something resembling civil behavior.
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I can't resist. Such a "aw shucks, what have I done" answer deserves a response.
Here are some previous gems from you, Gorgo, lifted directly from your posts under a variety of topics. I brought these forward before you could go back and edit your words:
quote:
Because the U.S. is above the law. The U.S. does not wish to conform to the same standards that it expects others to conform.
It is the largest terrorist nation on earth.
quote:
I'm sure I'll be satisfied when someone explains some things to me.
I missed the part where it says that George Bush is emperor and the U.S. should go in and bomb whatever country they feel like bombing. Is that the part that's been discussed for years? By whom? Wolf Blitzer?
quote:
Yes, it is murder. I have no control over Saddam Hussein. As citizens, we are supposed to have some control over what our government does. To stop murdering and terrorizing people would improve things.
quote:
We had a former Attorney General of the United States hold a tribunal in New York in 1992, with lawyers and former judges and human rights workers, former legislators and miliary and union people. Not a word about it in any newspaper or television news program. They found the U.S. administration guilty of war crimes. Not a legal trial, just a show trial, as those who were accused did not wish to attend. If they couldn't even get a word in the corporate media, I don't imagine that this level of fundamentalist thought will be cracked much be me.
quote:
I understand that in the heat of the moment. However, we have time to think. I think it's time to stop and think and ask ourselves who we want to be. Do we want to continue to be the largest terrorist nation on earth, or do we want to set an example?
quote:
As I've said in other forums here, if we are serious about ending terrorism, we need to be serious about ending U.S. terrorism. If we are serious about "rounding up" terrorists, then we need to start rounding up U.S. terrorists.
quote:
I appreciate all the remarks, but we're not going to get anywhere if we keep talking about "mistakes" in foreign policy. The policy against Iraq is genocide. These are not mistakes. The millions that died in Southeast Asia and Korea at the hands of the U.S. are not "mistakes." This is murder.
The invasion of Panama (with resultant "collateral damage")was no more ethical than the invasion of Kuwait. These are not "mistakes" they are crimes against humanity.
quote:
Going back in history to resolution 678, the UN Security Council (not the U.N.) was bribed and threatened by the U.S. to begin acting against Iraq without having first negotiated, which is against the UN charter.
It is against the UN charter and the Geneva Convention to target civilian populations, which the U.S. has done. The US has manipulated the sanctions, holding up necessary supplies and continues a terrorist bombing campaign.
To go back to Panama, this terrorist action violated several treaties, and was condemned by the UN General Assembly, not just the 15 member Security Council.
quote:
To think that corporate-funded NPR is any more free than any other corporate media, is of course ridiculous, and I fully agree with all that you've said. Those that think superstitious actions like waving flags and bombing farmers will solve problems are not unlike the Creationists.
quote:
You are the only one using the words blame and demons. All that I've said is that if you care about bringing terrorists to justice, you'd better start with Henry Kissinger, Bill Clinton and the Bushes George.
quote:
I'm sure that the U.S. has helped many people. They've also murdered millions.
quote:
Mistakes? There are mistakes, yes. Somewhere around two million dead in Iraq is no mistake. It was intentional. Millions dead in Southeast Asia and Korea. No mistake. Intentional. Thousands tortured and killed with U.S. support in Latin America? No mistake. Intentional.
What is the logic behind the idea that the crimes of others excuse U.S. crimes? I can't quite grasp that one.
quote:
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2001 : 13:15:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Why are you so "viciously" pro-criminal? In which part of these quotes do you see me begging anyone to attack anyone?
You've accused me of being insane, so now I'm going to return the favor. Either you are the most delusional character to haunt a message board since Piper on the BABB, or there really are two Gorgos, one who clearly advocates the destruction of our political leaders and the other one who follows behind to play damage control.
Proper retaliation for the atrocities of September 11 is a criminal act?? What planet do you live on? I would be very disappointed in my government if they had NOT responded in the manner in which they have. I refuse to cower behind the fear that we might piss somebody off just because we want to eliminate this scourge of hate and terrorism from the face of the earth. The vast majority of nations and the U.N. agree with our approach, which has been conducted with as much civility and humanity as possible. The Al Qaeda and bin Laden have all but directly admitted their culpability and are threatening to attack again, in worse ways. Shall we conduct a peace march and "win" them over with Kumbaya and flowers?
Read your own words - I pulled these quotes from your posts. You make rash statements about the "millions" that the United States has murdered and cannot back them up with anything more profound than the lunatic ravings of a couple of leftist hacks. You, more than once, said that the attacks on terrorism should start with our own nation. Are you retreating from these statements or do you think I made them up?
You and your opinions do nothing positive for the world. You have taken over this board and appeasement, negotiations, calm rebuttals (perhaps not by me, I admit), arguments and rants notwithstanding, have refused to even concede for a moment that you might be wrong and that other opinions and FACTS about this situation have validity. Where is your skepticism?
And I'm the "bully". This forum has lost any attraction it might have had for me and has certainly become a major source of high blood pressure. I shall now retreat to other diversions and be content with lurking.
It's all yours...
 
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2001 : 14:18:47 [Permalink]
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I didn't accuse you of being insane. This is just another method of yours to avoid any kind of reasonable discussion. Take a deep breath or two.
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You've accused me of being insane, so now I'm going to return the favor.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/14/2001 14:23:41 |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2001 : 14:29:03 [Permalink]
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note to Rubysue:
In your first posting in this folder, you mentioned that "I still see no rational reason to EVER buy into those ideas or leave them unchallenged." And in your last posting, you mentioned "This forum ... has certainly become a major source of high blood pressure."
Sounds to me that you've now found a rational reason to just let "those ideas" go unchallenged (by you). (Others will pick up the slack.)
Might I suggest that you do something similar to what I do when I read a "reasoned argument" from a poster who has turned off his/her baloney detector?
I nod at my screen, smile ruefully at my own stupidity, and say, "Of course, Piper (JW/Mifletz/Dunash/Gorgo/whomever)! How could I have been so blind as to think differently? I bow to your wisdom! I am unworthy to believe that I could add anything of substance to your words!" and *don't* reply. Instead, I do something more constructive, like more research or housework or cleaning the cats' litterboxes.
Does wonders for the blood pressure. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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