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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 07/27/2005 : 15:08:05 [Permalink]
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Dave W.
"Great, then there's little need to even discuss any "protect people from themselves" points, unless the "MAIN REASON" is shown to be baloney."
You put "protect people from themselves" as if you were quoting me. I do not consider my secondardy argument in favor of bar bans to be that. Requiring food companies to put he nutritional info on packaging costs those companies money, and one could argue that just listing the ingredients alone would be sufficient for protecting people who have allergies, but we require the nutritional info because it makes it easier for people who want to eat heathy. Bar bans don't stop people from smoking, but they do make it easier for a lot of people who want to quit or who have quit. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 15:38:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
You put "protect people from themselves" as if you were quoting me.
You're right, I should have hyphenated, and should know better as editor of this Web site. It should have read "protect-people-from-themselves points."quote:
I do not consider my secondardy argument in favor of bar bans to be that. Requiring food companies to put he nutritional info on packaging costs those companies money, and one could argue that just listing the ingredients alone would be sufficient for protecting people who have allergies, but we require the nutritional info because it makes it easier for people who want to eat heathy.
What a load of garbage. The government mandated detailed labels to protect the consumer from the greedy, profit-driven food companies. The ingredients list itself does not provide enough information to protect, for example, a hypertensive from salt when "salt" appears at the end of the list but is still waaay over the hypertensive's own limit. The labels are detailed so that consumers can make informed decisions about their food, if they so choose. You'll note that there is not yet a single law which restricts access to junk food, despite it being a damn good idea if the intent is to protect people from themselves.quote:
Bar bans don't stop people from smoking, but they do make it easier for a lot of people who want to quit or who have quit.
Those people who want to quit or who have quit can simply avoid bars, and thus stay away from 100 percent of the social triggers for smoking available there. The friend you made an example of, earlier, probably would have gone back to smoking had she seen your other three friends leaving the bar every hour to light up. "They're going for a smoke," she'd probably say to herself, and that's a temptation all by itself. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 15:55:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
marfknox:
Kil,
“you really do seem to have your mind made up, at least tentatively.”
1.) Is it a bad thing to take a stance on an issue knowing you might be later proven wrong?
2.) The adding of “at least tentatively” really weakens what you are saying. I mean, if one is a critical thinker, then aren't ALL their opinions “tentative”?
I'm sorry. I was responding to this:
quote:
marfknox:
I do not have my mind all made up. I really did start this discussion because I'm open minded.
I responded with this:
quote:
Me:
Well, gosh. In all honesty, unless you are playing devils advocate, you really do seem to have your mind made up, at least tentatively. That you are generally siding with those studies that seem to show a link between passive smoking and illness, after acknowledging that they may be flawed, has to be some kind of indication of where you are coming from. I am not saying you are not the least bit open-minded. But you are nowhere near the middle, trying to figure out what is the best thing to do either.
And from that reply you got that I have a problem with tentative conclusions? All I was trying to do is point out is that by all indications, you have made up your mind, at least tentatively. The tentative part was to your credit.
quote:
marfknox:
An argument is not made more valid by being more in the middle.
And I never said it was.
quote:
marfknox:
Also, this is a silly thing to claim, because what is our measure of the extremes, and what is the measure of distance between positions? Personally, I count a great deal of distance between banning smoking in bars and banning the production and use of cigarettes, and from that perspective, I'd claim to be more in the middle than on the extremes. If you want to view me as an extremist, fine, but that's an opinion.
Again, I never made the claim. And really, it is a bit disconcerting that you read all of that into my reply. All I said is that you have made up your mind, at least tentatively. I wanted to make that point because I think you are being a tad disingenuous to say that you haven't. I gave you credit for being at least a bit open minded about it still.
quote:
marfknox:
Kil, I don't personally “place my energies” on anti-smoking legislation. (Unless you count this conversation on skeptic friends as activism.) I do engage in regular activism and community service, but most of it involves promoting art education, church-state separation and gay rights. And I do that stuff ‘cause those issues interest me personally. I don't think a citizen must seek out what is the “most important” social issue and fight for that. We should fight for what interests us personally and what we know the most about – then we will be better activists. I don't know why anyone on this forum would assume I'm some sort of hard core anti-smoking activist just because I have an opinion on the smoking ban issue. Like I said, |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 16:10:34 [Permalink]
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Humbert, I find it highly regrettable that you decided to make this discussion so utterly personal. Even my original sarcasm (“boo hoo”) wasn't directed toward you or anyone else on this forum personally. And Kil's parody of me as a Christian moralist was trying to make a point about the definition of “moralist”, again, for the sake of this discussion. You are the only person here who has decided to forego the actual discussion, and attack the character of someone you've never met based on a casual online discussion.
Humbert said: “Well, I hardly think that a judgment made this far into the thread qualifies as rash,”
It may or may not be rash, but it is a logical fallacy in regards to this debate.
Humbert said: “Perhaps I should note that I am against smoking bans in bars and people who beat their spouses.”
If you did say that, I'd continue the discussion about the former, while separately agreeing with you on (or just ignoring) the latter. Your reaction was to call me a moral fundamentalist and to presume to read my mind by accusing me of deception.
“You mentioned that you have relations who work in bars and find cigarette smoke unpleasant. Nothing in your comment suggests a concern for their health.”
Things from my second post that suggested a concern for health:
- “drugs are a potential social menace”
- they possess “addictive qualities”
- I was responding to Ricky's hypothetical about popcorn and obesity – which is another health issue.
As much as it pains me to admit it… Because of the anti-smoking ban people who did not decide to give up on reasoning with me (Kil, Dave W. and Valiant Dancer in particular) – and my friend not on this forum who brought up the issue about the children - I must say that my personal position on this issue has shifted from definitely for smoking bans in bars to being rather indifferent about it. I can now see how bar bans might have more negative or more positive effects, and seeing as there aren't conclusive studies either way, I'm rather at a loss of which way to go.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 17:22:54 [Permalink]
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Kil,
I'm thinking that you and I have misinterpreted each other on minor points here and there. I know I'm getting a little lost, and I assume “Oh good grief” means you're a little confused too. I'm also thinking I responded to stuff of yours that indeed didn't need a response. Er, yeah, so I'm letting that threat go.
Anyway, I think the sum-up is that you are coming from the "through and through liberal” perspective, where smoking in bars is a civil right until it can be proven that such behavior is severely detrimental to non-consenting adults. Fair enough. (Hopefully I've phrased that in a way that is agreeable.)
My perspective isn't hugely different, but it is slightly so. I'm a liberal in the sense that I staunchly oppose laws that would make people into criminals for concentual activities. I don't deem smoking in bars to be any kind of civil right, and bar bans don't turn smokers into criminals. A public policy that inconveniences people who enjoy engaging in a particular recreational activity isn't a violation of their basic freedoms. That's just explaining where I'm coming from. I'm not trying to change your mind.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/27/2005 21:12:47 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 17:42:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Because of the anti-smoking ban people who did not decide to give up on reasoning with me (Kil, Dave W. and Valiant Dancer in particular)...
Oh, forcryingoutloud!
To be pigeonholed as an "anti-smoking ban" person after telling you - how many times? - that I wasn't arguing against the bans tells me that you really haven't been paying attention.
Perhaps that's also part of the reason you're having such problems with others in this thread, like H. and GeeMack? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 19:20:45 [Permalink]
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I am sooo sorry Dave W. I actually knew you weren't an anti-smoking ban person, but I was tired and didn't phrase my last post accurately enough. My pathetic excuse is that I'm spending way too much time on this forum and trying to post while doing my normal life stuff, and thus I was careless.
I meant to include you as a compliment, in that your challenges to me were persuasive. You convinced me that my secondary reasons for supporting the ban were weak (the word you used was "crappy".) And then Kil mostly went after the primary reason as based on junk science. That is all I meant. Did not mean to pigeonhole you.
I think your last line about H and GeeMack is a cheap shot.
And, hey, what is your stance on this issue, anyway? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/27/2005 19:33:31 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 19:35:06 [Permalink]
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Look, it's quite obvious that you're spending far too much time on "normal life stuff" and not nearly enough time here at the SFN, and it's coming out as simple mistakes. For example, that last line wasn't a "cheap shot," it was a serious attempt to help with a situation which appears to be rapidly going down the toilet. A lack of proper attention could very well lead to what I - as a third party (to those parts of this thread) - see going on.
So, ignore your husband more. Sneak out of work early. Spend more time on the SFN. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 20:17:39 [Permalink]
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Dave W., it was a cheap shot.
My grouping you with the anti-smoking ban people was a clear error, I admitted it and apologized for it. What clear errors based on my not paying attention have justified Humbert's attacks on my character and his decision to give up rational debate?
And as dv82matt pointed out, part of GeeMack's “problem” with me, as you call it, is that he wasn't paying attention to my entire argument, and was instead knocking down only the weakest aspect of my position and then proposing a solution that ignored things I already made clear that I was aware of.
A lot of debate is nuance, and misunderstanding will occur based on semantics differences and mis-readings of sarcasm. That doesn't mean people aren't paying enough attention.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 21:46:59 [Permalink]
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[looking sheepish] oooooo... were you trying to say that they also weren't paying attention?
tee hee.
(see what I mean about misunderstandings?)
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/27/2005 21:51:08 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 22:35:48 [Permalink]
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Sorry Dave, skipped your response, because I need to jump all over this one.
quote:
Requiring food companies to put he nutritional info on packaging costs those companies money, and one could argue that just listing the ingredients alone would be sufficient for protecting people who have allergies, but we require the nutritional info because it makes it easier for people who want to eat heathy.
I have something called Celiac Sprue, it is an autoimmune disorder related to the consumption of Gluten.
quote:
Celiac disease is a digestive disease that damages the small intestine and interferes with absorption of nutrients from food. People who have celiac disease cannot tolerate a protein called gluten, found in wheat, rye, and barley. Gluten is found mainly in foods, but is also found in products we use every day and even some medicines.
From: http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/celiac/
One of the hidden dangers on the labeling of ingredients for celiacs is 'Modified Food Starch'. This starch may come from any source, wheat, rye, barley, (sometimes) oats, corn, tapioca, potato, etc. The starch from wheat, rye, barley, and (sometimes) oats (because they aren't sure yet) can adversely affect me. The starch from corn, tapioca, and potato is ok for me to consume. But the ingredient is 'Modified Food Starch'. The words Gluten Free on the package (which speaking from a graphics perspecitive run about $50 - $75 dollars to add to the new label and add no further costs) save me from even wondering if I can consume the produce. Because then I should know that the product is safe for me to eat, despite the dreaded 'Modified Food Starch'. Oh and there's the hydrogenated vegetable oil also. Not even my toothpaste can have gluten in it. I can't buy one particular form of Aveno (tm) hand lotion because it contains wheat. The potential to transfer the lotion to my digestive tract is too big a risk. I have to read every label, the Gluten Free is a big help to me. It also makes my shopping that much easier and quicker. Since I have to check labels everytime, even if I've purchased the product before.
Edited to add: The $50 - $75 dollars, I mention is a one time cost. It can also be incorporated anytime a change is made to the labeling, the cost remains the same. This cost includes the time of the GA to add the sentence, the production of the new plates (assuming a 4 part print process - which would be standard practice for something of that nature), and the test runs (which would be done anytime a new run is set) to assure the proper overall color of the product. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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| Edited by - Trish on 07/27/2005 22:49:43 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 22:44:25 [Permalink]
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I haven't disappeared, I've just not been able to post nearly as often as I'd like, because I do have to work. In fact, this afternoon I had a Needlestick Safety Class at Quest Diagnostics, which is required before I begin my externship. I left my current place of residence at 9:04 this am, to arrive at my destination prior to 1:00 pm. Taking a bus from Brighton to Aurora in CO takes a while. I was actually 1/2 hour early. I left Quest at 3:45, and did not arrive back to my starting point until 6:35. This for an approximately 4 hour class. I spent more time in travel than I did at my destination.
I will disappear following tomorrow night, I won't have a computer connection after I leave my friends home to move into my new place. I won't have a phone and I won't be able to get one until I begin making more than I am currently. My life does not revolve around this forum. Though I will miss seeing where this goes. I will try to get through the posts and hopefully make a coherent response tomorrow. But then, I may not, I've a lot to do. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 23:08:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Humbert, I find it highly regrettable that you decided to make this discussion so utterly personal. Even my original sarcasm (“boo hoo”) wasn't directed toward you or anyone else on this forum personally.
Yet earlier you said:
quote:
I didn't refer to smokers as cry babies. I referred to people who call smokers "the most inconvenienced demographic" cry babies.
Um, since I was the one who pointed out that because smoking is prohibited virtually everywhere except bars, smokers were the most inconvenienced demographic. I fail to understand why you wouldn't expect me to read that as a comment directed squarely at me.
At another point you commented that it irritated you some posters weren't "paying attention to my entire argument, and [were] instead knocking down only the weakest aspect of my position." That's pretty much exactly how I felt you were reacting toward anything I brought up. Even this whole "smoking culture" bit. It was you who asked me whether or not I could concede that some of the appeal of smoking was in some way a cultural artifact. I merely agreed with you that it was, that there is a tradition in our culture of smoking. You then went on for the next three pages about jumping on my fucking "smoking culture" bandwagon, when in fact it was you who brought it up! That's when I decided you were not interested in holding any sort of rational discourse, but only in erecting strawmen for you to demolish. (Crack-pipe culture? Please.)
I admit by that point I no longer had the emotional composer to continue in this thread, and so said as much. If I misread you, then I apologize. I'm not one to hold grudges nor do I feel any ill will toward you. I still feel your position on this issue is dead wrong, but I'm no longer inclined to debate it. Perhaps we can find something to agree on over in another topic.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/27/2005 23:19:41 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 06:47:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
I haven't disappeared, I've just not been able to post nearly as often as I'd like, because I do have to work. In fact, this afternoon I had a Needlestick Safety Class at Quest Diagnostics, which is required before I begin my externship. I left my current place of residence at 9:04 this am, to arrive at my destination prior to 1:00 pm. Taking a bus from Brighton to Aurora in CO takes a while. I was actually 1/2 hour early. I left Quest at 3:45, and did not arrive back to my starting point until 6:35. This for an approximately 4 hour class. I spent more time in travel than I did at my destination.
I will disappear following tomorrow night, I won't have a computer connection after I leave my friends home to move into my new place. I won't have a phone and I won't be able to get one until I begin making more than I am currently. My life does not revolve around this forum. Though I will miss seeing where this goes. I will try to get through the posts and hopefully make a coherent response tomorrow. But then, I may not, I've a lot to do.
I am sorry you couldn't find an externship with a company that values employees. Most of the worker bees are good folks. Management......... well. There's an IS guy to watch out for. John out of Philly. Don't trust that SOB.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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