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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 11/13/2001 : 10:03:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
I wouldn't have minded seeing a recount of all votes in all states. I bet that would be interesting.
I'm sure many 50 state recounts in the last 200+ years would have been interesting. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.
I agree with @tomic that it would be very interesting, but I also agree with PhDreamer in that it is a completely unrealistic and bad idea. We have to set time limits, both on when one can vote, and when the tallies can be officially reported.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2001 : 10:15:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
So, if this happened in FL, I wonder what went down eleswhere.
Yeah, like Democrats giving the homeless cigarettes in exchange for Gore votes in Chicago, or Democrats telling ignorant immigrants in South Florida that they "had" to vote democrat.
Don't get me wrong, I'm pointed out supposed Democrat wrongdoing simply to provide a balance to your only pointing out Repubican shennanigans. Anyone who screws with an election should be prosecuted.
quote:
Reason tells me that if it happened in FL, why couldn't something similar, or different but just as bad, have happened in other states. A pity that I / we can't know for sure.
You are making my point for me as to why I'm so frustrated at these silly claims that Gore really won the election. (If the cadidates were reversed, but the circumstances entirely the same, I'd be pissed at the people claiming Bush really won).
Even if we did recount every vote in every state, the fact that there has been so much time and opportunity for fraud after the fact makes any count useless. Democrat county board members locked themselves in a room while they "counted" ballots. A whole box of blank ballots and a friggin' punch voting machine were found in the back seat of a democrat.
I will reiterate my opinion: To claim as fact that Al Gore won the election is being dishonest (one is either not thinking rationally, or they are lying). There is no way it is possible to know this, nor will it ever be possible.
quote:
This puts me in an uncomfortable position. All of my life, since Kennedy, I've voted a split ticket. As it stands now, I'd not vote for a Republican if the son of a bitch walked on water. I cannot stand dishonesty.
This is so ironic and outrageous that I will spare everyone (and myself) from even commenting on it.
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 11/13/2001 10:24:42 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2001 : 14:02:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
This puts me in an uncomfortable position. All of my life, since Kennedy, I've voted a split ticket. As it stands now, I'd not vote for a Republican if the son of a bitch walked on water. I cannot stand dishonesty.
This is so ironic and outrageous that I will spare everyone (and myself) from even commenting on it.
I voted for Clinton twice and Gore, but not from any sense of partisan ethical superiority. Anyone who harps on any one particular malfeasance by either party has either long-term memory loss or is running for office.
There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts! It wasn't my fault, I swear to god! - Jake Blues |
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Grand Nubian
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2001 : 09:06:23 [Permalink]
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All these articles agree that gore would have won if the votes for all of florida had been counted. They also agree that gore pursued the wrong avenue for a recount. There`s one more thing in common of these papers. They all have head lines implying "Bush still wins". Be sure to watch for the words "partial recount" or "county wide".
The problem is gore asked for a recount in certain counties and based on these counties he still loses. Yet, if the entire state is recounted, bush loses. So you decide.
"Only when the most liberal standards were applied to all disputed ballots statewide -- something Gore never sought -- did the former veep gain an edge of anywhere from 42 to 171 votes."
http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2001/11/12/75319
"A vote-by-vote review of untallied ballots in the 2000 Florida presidential election commissioned by the nation`s main media outlets shows Al Gore edged ahead of George W. Bush "under all the scenarios for counting all undervotes and overvotes statewide," the DRUDGE REPORT has learned."
"Bush would have narrowly prevailed in the partial recounts sought by Gore,"
http://www.drudgereport.com/mattv.htm
"However, if Gore had pursued a full statewide recount he might have picked up enough votes to surpass Bush by an even slimmer margin."
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Florida-Ballot-Review.html
"An approach Mr. Gore and his lawyers rejected as impractical a statewide recount could have produced enough votes to tilt the election his way, no matter what standard was chosen to judge voter intent."
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/politics/recount/12VOTE.html
"In addition to undervotes, thousands of ballots in the Florida presidential election were invalidated because they had too many marks. This happened, for example, when a voter correctly marked a candidate and also wrote in that candidate`s name. The consortium looked at what might have happened ifa statewide recount had included these overvotes as well and found that Gore would have had a margin of fewer than 200 votes. "
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html
"President George W. Bush would still have won Florida in the 2000 presidential election...had the partial recount halted by the U.S. Supreme Court last December been allowed to continue..."
Then the same article says in the next paragraph:
"However, had Democratic candidate Al Gore gained a statewide recount, which he advocated but did not legally pursue, he might have been able to squeak out a win with a margin of between 42 to 171 votes, the survey found."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,38554,00.html
"But if Gore had found a way to trigger a statewide recount of all disputed ballots, or if the courts had required it, the result likely would have been different. An examination of uncounted ballots throughout Florida found enough where voter intent was clear to give Gore the narrowest of margins."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12623-2001Nov11.html
Again all these articles start out by saying that bush still wins. Butthen later in the article that cleary say that only if the partial recount takes place. Yet, if all of florida was counted correctly then gore would likely have won.
There are many more articles but I hope this is enough.
Just so there's no mis understanding,I'm not a gore supporter nor am I a liberal. I'm just a guy that's pissed because information is being withheld and we have a man in office that may not be the one we originally wanted.
I am also upset that people dismiss the obvious cover up by the media with the misleading headlines.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2001 : 12:49:46 [Permalink]
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I've read a few articles, didn't save all the links though, and they made the argument that Gore won. I did save this one for everyone.
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2058631
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2001 : 13:32:00 [Permalink]
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This last part makes no sense: quote:
Even Al Gore hasn't stepped forward to argue that the recount supports the conclusion that he really won, for all the obvious reasons. He doesn't want to damage national solidarity. He doesn't want to look like a sore loser. But Gore doesn't look like a sore loser anymore. He now looks like a sore winner.
Al Gore hasn't said anything, but this guy says he looks like a sore winner? I know he's trying to be clever, but he mangled it.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2001 : 13:34:40 [Permalink]
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Perhaps so, but apart from that I thought he raised rather valid points.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2001 : 13:34:43 [Permalink]
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Also from that article: quote:
Using eight different criteria for what constitutes a legally valid and countable vote, Gore probably would have won Florida by a hundred votes or so.
Anyone here really believe that there weren't at least one hundred fraudulent ballots generated by Gore supporters in the chaos following the election? (Remember the Gore supporter with the voting machine in his car?)
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2001 : 13:40:12 [Permalink]
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What I get from all of these articles, and I don't care who your were hoping for, is that we will never, ever, ever know for sure who won. Anyone can make any argument they want but someone else can make another and everyone can have good points to make but it was so damn close and Florida was so messed up that whoever sat in the big chair was going to be a pretender to half the country.
All we can hope for is that next time our election process is more fair and credible.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2001 : 17:43:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
What I get from all of these articles, and I don't care who your were hoping for, is that we will never, ever, ever know for sure who won. Anyone can make any argument they want but someone else can make another and everyone can have good points to make but it was so damn close and Florida was so messed up that whoever sat in the big chair was going to be a pretender to half the country.
All we can hope for is that next time our election process is more fair and credible.
Amen!
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captnemo
New Member
USA
1 Post |
Posted - 12/26/2002 : 15:43:40 [Permalink]
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 More crybaby Dems. Face it, in every legitimate way of counting the votes, Bush won. That's the end of it. Bush probably also won the popular vote, but the final tally is still vague. He had a large surge of absentee military votes befoe the election was declared at an end. So there. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2002 : 16:08:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
More crybaby Dems. Face it, in every legitimate way of counting the votes, Bush won. That's the end of it. Bush probably also won the popular vote, but the final tally is still vague. He had a large surge of absentee military votes befoe the election was declared at an end. So there.
Gore clearly won the popular vote by a wide margin. No one that can read the results would dispute that. Anyone that cares to can dispute your claim of "legitimacy" because you obviously cling to that because the outcome was one you preferred. The end of it is that the Supreme Court stepped in and decided what was legitimate in an area that was quite subjective. And that's the way many, many Americans will always feel because our officials have dropped the ball on our voting methods. Voters should never have used a method of casting votes that could so easily get mucked up. Slap yourself on the back if it makes you feel good. I say a usurper sits in the white house and is using his position to ruin the country.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2002 : 16:23:00 [Permalink]
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Yeah, right. By exactly one vote. But, whaddahell. We're stuck with him and will have to live with this sciopathic dimwit until we can get unstuck.
Anyhow, welcome to SFN!
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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