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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
 Posted - 08/17/2005 : 13:18:56 [Permalink]
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Tell us, dear Fripp, since you are so intelligent, why NASA's buffoons built this biggest crane before going to the Moon?
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2000-001287.jpg |
"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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| Edited by - bigbrain on 08/17/2005 13:26:29 |
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2005 : 13:24:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
"... And since the rocket parts themselves when in finalized stage form are quite heavy and need to be lifted, why does the existance of a crane this size surprise you?"
Perhaps you have never seen this
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2000-001281.jpg
THIS IS NOT A BIG CRANE TO ASSEMBLE ROCKETS   |
"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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sts60
Skeptic Friend
141 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2005 : 13:42:48 [Permalink]
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Lots of things will burn under different conditions. Titanium, for example, can burn in nitrogen, or in carbon dioxide (which is used in Class C fire extinguishers!) Carbon monoxide, which is generated by ordinary materials burning inefficiently, will itself burn if it gets up around 1100 F - I've seen it inside a flashover simulator; quite fun to see the smoky air over your head turn into tongues of flame.
In any case, the initial flash of the impact on Tempel 1 was due to conversion of kinetic energy - hundreds of kg moving at thousands of km/hr is a lot of kinetic energy - to heat, but was only visible to the nearby flyby craft. The rapid expansion of water vapor, ice, dust, and other gases into sunlight provided the brightening visible from Earthbound observers. It's the same thing that happens when every long-period comet gets close to the Sun, only this was suddenly caused by the impact "explosion" - which is a misnomer because it was not a chemical explosion like a bomb.
Anyway, I've seen some wild claims from "electric cosmos" and "peroxide universe" proponents as to other mechanisms for the initial flash, but even they are not so ignorant or disconnected from reality as to say it didn't even happen. There's no dispute about that fact. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2005 : 13:49:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain
Tell us, since you are so intelligent, why NASA's buffoons built this biggest crane before going to the Moon?
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2000-001287.jpg
According to the website you link to, the image is of a drop test crane (to test the effects of aircraft crashes) it was originally built to simulate an LM landing for the Apollo program. Becoming familiar with vision limitations of a craft before actually piloting it is considered a good thing. This one is at Langley Research Center.
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/ABSTRACTS/GPN-2000-001287.html
Why is the construction of the crane so important? It had a valid purpose to provide a familiarity with the equipment and give visual cues as to a safe decent velocity to the pilots in case of a computer failure. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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sts60
Skeptic Friend
141 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2005 : 13:49:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
And since the rocket parts themselves when in finalized stage form are quite heavy and need to be lifted, why does the existance of a crane this size surprise you?
The crane you're thinking of is actually not for assembling the Apollo stack - that was done in the Vehicle Assembly Building - but rather was used to give the astronauts a feel for flying the Lunar Module on approach to the Moon.
More about the Lunar Landing Research Facility:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a11/a11.llrf.html
http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/butowsky4/space14.htm
(edit - ha! you beat me to it) |
| Edited by - sts60 on 08/17/2005 13:50:47 |
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2005 : 13:51:11 [Permalink]
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Dear sts60
what do you think about my fifth statement?
FIFTH STATEMENT: YOU GO TO MARS AND TO SATURN TO DEMONSTRATE YOUR POWER AND YOUR SUPERIORITY TO ALL THE WORLD. THEN YOU SHOULD FILM (AT 30 FRAMES PER SECOND) MARS AND SATURN RAISING OUT OF THE DARKNESS OF UNIVERSE WHILE YOU ARE GOING MORE AND MORE CLOSER TO THEM. IT WOULD BE A FANTASTIC SIGHT THAT WOULD DEMONSTRATE YOUR POWER, YOUR SUPERIORITY.
WHY DON'T YOU MAKE THESE FILMS OF EXTRAORDINARY BEAUTY AND WHY DO YOU MAKE UGLY MOVIES WITH TONS OF STONES MADE BY FISHEYE LENS AND FEW FRAMES PER SECOND LIKE FILMS OF 1900?
BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT NEAR MARS OR SATURN AND 3D SOFTWARES CAN'T MAKE THESE FILMS IN A REALISTIC WAY: WE WOULD UNDERSTAND THEY ARE FAKE.
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"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2005 : 13:52:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by sts60
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
And since the rocket parts themselves when in finalized stage form are quite heavy and need to be lifted, why does the existance of a crane this size surprise you?
The crane you're thinking of is actually not for assembling the Apollo stack - that was done in the Vehicle Assembly Building - but rather was used to give the astronauts a feel for flying the Lunar Module on approach to the Moon.
More about the Lunar Landing Research Facility:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a11/a11.llrf.html
http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/butowsky4/space14.htm
Thanks, STS60, I discovered my error when I backed out of his narrow picture to the context in which it appears.
You are correct, it is a LM simulator to orient the LM pilots to the feel of the craft and provide visual cues to speed and distance while in the LM. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2005 : 13:53:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain
Perhaps you have never seen this
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2000-001281.jpg
THIS IS NOT A BIG CRANE TO ASSEMBLE ROCKETS
You're right, it's not a crane at all. The first image (2000-001281) is of the Langley drop test facility. Here's the full description:The Langley drop test facility where aircraft crashes can be simulated. The grid screen at the left of the facility is used as a backdrop for the impacts to allow engineers to measure angles and impact speeds. This facility was originally built to test a lunar lander simulator. The second image (link quoted above) is a multiple-exposure of a test.
And the question to you, bigbrain, is "so what?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2005 : 13:55:21 [Permalink]
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Damn, go away for five minutes to find the right answer, and the question gets answered, twice. Way to go, guys!  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2005 : 13:59:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
"... You're right, it's not a crane at all. The first image (2000-001281) is of the Langley drop test facility. Here's the full description:The Langley drop test facility where aircraft crashes can be simulated. The grid screen at the left of the facility is used as a backdrop for the impacts to allow engineers to measure angles and impact speeds. This facility was originally built to test a lunar lander simulator. The second image (link quoted above) is a multiple-exposure of a test.
And the question to you, bigbrain, is "so what?"
Then facts have gone this way (as I said in a previous post):
Kennedy says: "we must go to the Moon"
"NASA's buffoons" band sets to work and builds this tramp-rocket (TR)
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2000-001110.jpg
Then they build this biggest crane
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2000-001287.jpg
to test if their TR can land like an helicopter
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2000-001281.jpg
They see that unfortunately their TR can land like an helicopter only if they keep it by the crane because when they burn rocket engine it falls down in any direction at 360 degrees
Kennedy says: "damn and blast you!"
Kennedy and "NASA's buffoons" band decide to make a film about lunar landing
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"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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| Edited by - bigbrain on 08/17/2005 14:06:21 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2005 : 14:01:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
"... And since the rocket parts themselves when in finalized stage form are quite heavy and need to be lifted, why does the existance of a crane this size surprise you?"
Perhaps you have never seen this
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2000-001281.jpg
THIS IS NOT A BIG CRANE TO ASSEMBLE ROCKETS
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/ABSTRACTS/GPN-2000-001281.html
Might I suggest that when you get sent specific pictures outside of context of this stuff that you replace the /IMAGES/SMALL with /ABSTRACTS and replace the .jpg with .html? It provides the context in which the picture is taken. (It is case sensitive) |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2005 : 14:09:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
"... You're right, it's not a crane at all. The first image (2000-001281) is of the Langley drop test facility. Here's the full description:The Langley drop test facility where aircraft crashes can be simulated. The grid screen at the left of the facility is used as a backdrop for the impacts to allow engineers to measure angles and impact speeds. This facility was originally built to test a lunar lander simulator. The second image (link quoted above) is a multiple-exposure of a test.
And the question to you, bigbrain, is "so what?"
Then facts have gone this way (as I said in a previous post:
Kennedy says: "we must go to the Moon"
"NASA's buffoons" band sets to work and builds this tramp-rocket (TR)
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2000-001110.jpg
Then they build this biggest crane
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2000-001287.jpg
to test if their TR can land like an helicopter
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2000-001281.jpg
They see that unfortunately their TR can land like an helicopter only if they keep it by the crane because when they burn rocket engine it falls down in any direction at 360 degrees
Kennedy says: "damn and blast you!"
Kennedy and "NASA's buffoons" band decide to make a film about lunar landing
How about this.
Kennedy says go to moon.
NASA builds huge crane to familiarize the pilots with the handling characteristics of the craft and visual cues to speed and distance. NASA also builds LM flight simulators which allow the pilot to practice manuvering the craft. In flight tests are done to practice link up of the LM to the CM before risking a descent to the moon. Building up on operational successes and learning from operational failures, the skill set to perform such astounding feats is fleshed out.
The "Tramp rocket" pilots like a harrier jump jet, not a helicopter.
Their TR lands like a harrier in full hover mode using vectored thrust and thanks to engineering works as tested and practiced.
Kennedy says nothing because he is dead. (1963. There was a whole thing reported from Texas about it. I'm surprized you didn't know.)
NASA goes to the moon.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2005 : 14:18:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
"... The "Tramp rocket" pilots like a harrier jump jet, not a helicopter ..."
What are you saying?
A harrier jump jet is completely different from TR 
Hi all
it's bed time for me and my girl 
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"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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| Edited by - bigbrain on 08/17/2005 14:20:46 |
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sts60
Skeptic Friend
141 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2005 : 14:22:01 [Permalink]
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Their TR lands like a harrier in full hover mode using vectored thrust and thanks to engineering works as tested and practiced.
Actually, the LM was probably easier to land than a Harrier, which has two nozzles to the LM's single gimballed engine/bell, wings and empennage sticking out (think moment arms), and of course full Earth gravity and winds, billowing dust, etc. to deal with. The LM had a low center of gravity, a nice wide footprint, less gravitational acceleration to deal with, and none of the aerodynamic or environmental distractions. That's just off the top of my head. I certainly haven't piloted either one. ;-) |
| Edited by - sts60 on 08/17/2005 14:23:25 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2005 : 15:41:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by sts60
Their TR lands like a harrier in full hover mode using vectored thrust and thanks to engineering works as tested and practiced.
Actually, the LM was probably easier to land than a Harrier, which has two nozzles to the LM's single gimballed engine/bell, wings and empennage sticking out (think moment arms), and of course full Earth gravity and winds, billowing dust, etc. to deal with. The LM had a low center of gravity, a nice wide footprint, less gravitational acceleration to deal with, and none of the aerodynamic or environmental distractions. That's just off the top of my head. I certainly haven't piloted either one. ;-)
Right. And balancing the dual jets on the Harrier is more difficult than to have a single, centered jet like the LM can easily be tested: There was a documentary a while back on Discovery, about building walking robots. The engineer team in the program started with a one-leg jumping robot, because it was simpler and easier to program balance on. Only after they had the one-leg jumper did they go on to a two-leg runner (constantly moving robot). |
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