|
|
|
pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 08/19/2005 : 06:58:06 [Permalink]
|
| That scripture has nothing to do with what we are talking about. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
|
 |
|
|
woolytoad
Skeptic Friend
313 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 07:11:35 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
True, you need to seek God for yourself, you cannot take my word for it. If you do you will find out why the volcano gods have no power.
Because Sherman is lactose intolerant. 
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 10:56:28 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
That is the very definition of blind faith. If a situation comes along you don't understand, then you automatically trust your god and no more questioning is requried. God-of-the-Gaps.
I don't even think you read my post.
It isn't God-of-the-Gaps. That's how Christians explain Bible science. But it is what was said above, as soon as logic fails, resort to, "We can't understand God's purpose so we don't have to think about the stupidity of it."
My favorite stupid logic: People sinned so God sends someone (you have to also think about what it means to send an "only son" when we are all God's children, and when the reason losing a son is so painful is because you raise that child and develop a particular relationship. Then when you lose that child you DO NOT GET TO SEE THEM AGAIN, but I digress)as I was saying, God sends this person to be killed by the sinners so God can then forgive the sinners. Why couldn't God just forgive people? If you actually think about the Jesus premise, it is silly. Sorry Robb if I am offensive this morning but I am just speaking my beliefs. And, besides, you didn't address my post about who God kills. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/19/2005 10:57:14 |
|
|
|
pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 11:18:27 [Permalink]
|
| I used that term as "We don't understand X, so we'll just trust god" ... I think the term works here too, but I think we understand each other :-) |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
|
|
|
|
Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 11:29:16 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
God sends this person to be killed by the sinners so God can then forgive the sinners. Why couldn't God just forgive people? If you actually think about the Jesus premise, it is silly.
I have thought about it and do not agree that it is silly. The reason is that God cannot look the other way when sin is committed. A just God must demand a punishment, just as our judicial system must demand a punishment if someone is found guilty of a crime. So Jesus Christ died and served our punishment for us so God does not even see our sin on judgment day. It is taken off the record.
quote:
Sorry Robb if I am offensive this morning but I am just speaking my beliefs.
Why should I be affended if these are your beleifs? I only get offended if I am ridiculed for my beleifs.
quote:
And, besides, you didn't address my post about who God kills.
You noticed  . I need to think about that one before I respond with a rash post. Sorry for the wait. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
|
|
|
pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 11:47:36 [Permalink]
|
quote:
So Jesus Christ died and served our punishment for us so God does not even see our sin on judgment day. It is taken off the record.
Conditionally. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
|
|
|
|
Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 12:29:49 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
So Jesus Christ died and served our punishment for us so God does not even see our sin on judgment day. It is taken off the record.
Conditionally.
Can you eleborate please? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
|
|
|
Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 14:08:36 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
That scripture has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
I will create a post to explain why I think children can go to heaven from the bible that has nothing to do with age of accountability. I do not have my resources here, I will do it this weekend. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 14:27:00 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
I have thought about it and do not agree that it is silly. The reason is that God cannot look the other way when sin is committed. A just God must demand a punishment, just as our judicial system must demand a punishment if someone is found guilty of a crime. So Jesus Christ died and served our punishment for us so God does not even see our sin on judgment day. It is taken off the record.
Not silly?
If a stranger steals from you, does your "sense of justice" demand that you punch your kid? Since when does "justice" mean seeking revenge on someone, anyone, that will assuage your anger? Maybe you need to think about it some more.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/19/2005 14:59:40 |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 19:38:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
So Jesus Christ died and served our punishment for us so God does not even see our sin on judgment day. It is taken off the record.
So we can sin as much as we like, and face no consequences? What if we break the #1 Commandment as offered by Jesus himself?
Perhaps the answer to these questions will enlighten you as to pleco's "conditionally." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 21:34:53 [Permalink]
|
quote:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
See the condition? Your god will grant you eternal life, etc., IF you believe back. Otherwise you are thrown away. Also note that you are judged since day ONE of your existence...you are condemned UNLESS. God doesn't exactly give you much choice? What kind of choice do you have when you have a gun at your head?
Further, tell me where children are excluded? A literal reading of this would also mean that only males can be saved (note "he" is used in the KJV and Young's Literal, maybe more I didn't feel like checking - the NIV version replaces "He" with "Whoever" which is awfully nice of them. However, the Colorado Springs Guidelines http://www.bible-researcher.com/csguidelines.html #A-1 states that changing the "he" to "whoever" would be incorrect even though NIV and KJV are both "approved". Note that this Guidline was started by the the same person we are talking about at the top of this thread. These people just make no sense whatsoever but I digress...)
The overall question here is...
Why? Why would the actions of just a few decades (as compared with eternity) dictate whether you burn or not? Maybe if god allowed humans to live 10,000 years longer, more people could be saved. But if god knows they won't, then it wouldn't matter, which also means that there is no free-will, but I digress again.
Is it not possible that the heaven/hell construct is merely an attempt to make one feel better about "bad" people that when they die (or are executed) they can continue to be tortured forever (a sick way of looking at it, imho), and that the sacrifices of the "good" people will eventually be rewarded?
If there were no heaven/hell, and god did not grant you any special treatment for your worship, what would be the point of loving and worshiping this god? Answer: there would be no point.
Ergo, the "love" you say you have for your god is merely the hope that you get rewarded with eternal life by loving god (or, that you at least manage to escape eternal hell fire)
Stockholmn syndrome. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
|
| Edited by - pleco on 08/19/2005 22:03:46 |
|
|
|
Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 06:43:11 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
If a stranger steals from you, does your "sense of justice" demand that you punch your kid? Since when does "justice" mean seeking revenge on someone, anyone, that will assuage your anger? Maybe you need to think about it some more.
I don't think that you beleive that Jesus had a choice. He could not have gone through with it. I think your analagy is wrong. The better analogy is if my kid offers to serve the jail sentence for the person that stole from me, all the thief has to do is ask him. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 07:12:55 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
So Jesus Christ died and served our punishment for us so God does not even see our sin on judgment day. It is taken off the record.
You realise what kind of paradox this is, if God is omniscient?
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 07:14:19 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
See the condition? Your god will grant you eternal life, etc., IF you believe back. Otherwise you are thrown away. Also note that you are judged since day ONE of your existence...you are condemned UNLESS. God doesn't exactly give you much choice? What kind of choice do you have when you have a gun at your head?
We are judged because we sinned. God doesn't make us sin, we choose to. Even children choose to sin. He will forgive us if we ask. He already paid the penalty for all your sins.
quote:
The overall question here is...
Why? Why would the actions of just a few decades (as compared with eternity) dictate whether you burn or not? Maybe if god allowed humans to live 10,000 years longer, more people could be saved. But if god knows they won't, then it wouldn't matter, which also means that there is no free-will, but I digress again.
Again, just because God knows what choice you will make does not mean that he made you do it. I can predict, not 100%, but a high percentage of the time what my 3 year old daughter will do or say in a given situation. This does not mean that I make her do anything.
quote:
Is it not possible that the heaven/hell construct is merely an attempt to make one feel better about "bad" people that when they die (or are executed) they can continue to be tortured forever (a sick way of looking at it, imho), and that the sacrifices of the "good" people will eventually be rewarded?
Yes it is Possible, I don't beleive that. I find no gratification that bad or good people are burning in hell.
quote:
If there were no heaven/hell, and god did not grant you any special treatment for your worship, what would be the point of loving and worshiping this god? Answer: there would be no point.
God is not like this. Gods perfect justice demands a punishment for our sins. That is why there is a hell. Gods perfect love for us made a way for us to be forgiven of our sins and not have to serve our punishment. We are not going to hell because we don't worship him, we are going to hell because we must be punished for our sins.
quote:
Ergo, the "love" you say you have for your god is merely the hope that you get rewarded with eternal life by loving god (or, that you at least manage to escape eternal hell fire)
I think it is a bit arrogant for you to say why I love God. I love God for many reasons here are a few; he created me, loves me, has changed my life and has forgiven me when he had no obligation to.
|
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
|
|
|
Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 07:26:18 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
So Jesus Christ died and served our punishment for us so God does not even see our sin on judgment day. It is taken off the record.
You realise what kind of paradox this is, if God is omniscient?
God cannot do everything. He cannot make a rock so big that he can't lift it. Also, he cannot see your sin after it has been forgiven. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
