|
|
|
soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
 Posted - 08/18/2005 : 22:16:46 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby
The question of intent is not important to me.
He used a christian construct te explain and excuse his actions and a christian construct to gain the trust of some of his victims.
Why do so many criminals hide behind God?
What good is your god?
Dear Dry by,
He was a con man and a sociopath who masqueraded as a normal person as is the m.o. of sociopaths. Sociopaths are usually of very high intelligence but totally lacking in emphathy and are without conscience. Yet, they are capable of blending into a community almost seamlessly. It's all a big game to them. The only reason they get caught is because their arrogance about their superior intelligence leads them to make sloppy mistakes. In other words if he lived in the West Bank he would pretend to be an Orthodox Jew, if he lived in the Bible Belt he would pretend to be a fundamentalist Christian, etc. I suspect that his claim that the devil made him do it was a ploy to influence the jury before his sentencing hearing.
Respectfully submitted,
Soda Farl
Now, can we stop calling each other names? |
 |
|
|
soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 22:18:53 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
[quote]Originally posted by Dry_vby
There is a hymn that sums it up nicely. "They will know we are Christians by our love."
Oh, we're talking about alter boys now.
Please stop telling me how I should post.
What good is your God?
You are dismissed.
Who are you, God?
NO, I am Sister Mary Elephant and you better watch it or I'll smack you with my ruler!
|
|
|
|
Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 00:36:10 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby
The question of intent is not important to me.
He used a christian construct te explain and excuse his actions and a christian construct to gain the trust of some of his victims.
Why do so many criminals hide behind God?
What good is your god?
Dear Dry by,
He was a con man and a sociopath who masqueraded as a normal person as is the m.o. of sociopaths. Sociopaths are usually of very high intelligence but totally lacking in emphathy and are without conscience. Yet, they are capable of blending into a community almost seamlessly. It's all a big game to them. The only reason they get caught is because their arrogance about their superior intelligence leads them to make sloppy mistakes. In other words if he lived in the West Bank he would pretend to be an Orthodox Jew, if he lived in the Bible Belt he would pretend to be a fundamentalist Christian, etc. I suspect that his claim that the devil made him do it was a ploy to influence the jury before his sentencing hearing.
Respectfully submitted,
Soda Farl
Now, can we stop calling each other names?
Sorry it took me so long to respond, but I had things to attend to.
I can only presume from the tone of this and the immediately following post that you are being either sarcastic or patronising.
If my mother had have had wheels, I would have been born a bycycle.
Stick to the facts, Jack. |
"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
|
|
|
|
Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 00:40:01 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby
But, more than that, he doesn't even have to be a christian.
All he has to do is say that he accepts Jesus as he's lord and savior and Jesus will forgive him.
What a nice Jesus.
Jesus, (and you) can forgive him all you want.
Now, answer my question: "Where was your God while he watched that little girl die as slowly as possible for his own sexual gratification".
I am sure he was weeping and despairing about man's inhumanity towards men. Now, answer this question. What distinguishes us from lesser animals?
If Jesus was watching this horrendous act, doesn't that make him an accomplice in the eyes of the law? |
"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
|
|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 04:40:36 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
... Are you being willfully ignorant or just plain thick about what I previously posted. I shall once again explain what I meant. Denis Rader can say he is a Christian until he is blue in the face, but his actions indicated that he was the antithesis of what a Christian is. Have you ever explored the possibility that labels mean nothing, but actions are everything?
One thing that you need to keep in mind is that there are over 100 different flavors of Christianity all based upon a collection of poorly edited little books. These different flavors are each dependent upon a different interpretation of this collection of little books (Bible). An interpretation may be dependent upon just a single verse. And if you know the Bible you should realize that there are some pretty awful verses contained within it. Some at the behest of (an unchanging) God.
If Rader claims to be a Christian, then I see no reason to doubt him. You on the other hand equate values with your christian religion so it is inconceivable to you that his is a Christian. I on the other hand believe that if you sincerely repeat baseless nonsense as the Truth, then it becomes the truth those who unquestionably accept it.
I do not accept that good values are only derived from sincerely repeated Christian nonsense. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 05:49:13 [Permalink]
|
Greetings soda! Sorry I got here so late.
I am an atheist who has been through the god(s) argument so many times that it's become rather tedious. Believe what you are comfortable with, and I won't go missionary if you don't.... yes?
Back around page two, I believe you asked what makes a 'higher' animal. I am curious as to how you define 'higher.'
I submit that there is no scale of progression in the natural world; the amoeba is fully equal to the elephant on the scale of life. I further submit that there is no goal for evolution, except perhaps the theistic version -- which is open to argument -- to acheave and our species will drift into oblivian in due course, as do all.
Edit: I agree entirely that Radar is a sociopath, but I'd still like to see him treated the same as he treated his victims. If there is a god, that god might forgive him on any pretext; I would not.
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
| Edited by - filthy on 08/19/2005 05:56:11 |
|
|
|
pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 06:19:10 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
In other words if he lived in the West Bank he would pretend to be an Orthodox Jew, if he lived in the Bible Belt he would pretend to be a fundamentalist Christian, etc.
I would submit that if you took a Christian from America and could magically put that person as an infant in another part of the world, more times than not that person would grow up to believe whatever is the cultural majority religion.
Which to me makes perfect sense...none of the religions have a stranglehold on truth and most people beleive what they believe NOT because of their god is real or because of the supposed message.
Further, I submit that at least part of Rader may think himself a christian.
One other question (in general), why do chrisitans concern themselves with secular punishment? If god will judge people when they die, who cares what happens here? This life would be just a blink time-wise, so why have any laws or punishment? Why do christians care about the world so much? Why do christians wear seat belts?
Is it that deep down christians are not completely sold on what they beleive, and they realize that maybe, just maybe, we need to take care of business now? Quoting scripture here will not prove anything. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
|
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 07:24:17 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
His actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values
I have abandoned so-called "religious values", so am I a serial-murder, or just a potential?
His actions are the result of something far more complex than what you stated. But I'm sure it helps you sleep better at night to think what you do. Better that than trying to understand.
I could answer your question if you were more specific about which particular relgious values you have abononded. If you have cast aside the commmandment "Thou shalt not kill" or "Love they neighbor as thyself, for instance, clearly you could possibly be a "potential". I find it curious that people fail to recongize the possibility that some people make the conscious choice to commit evil acts purely as an act of their free will and without their choice being rooted in mental illness.
Ummm. Those things such as playing nice with others and not killing people are societal morays, not religious ones. The societal morays transcend religious boundaries and cannot be claimed by religion in general or specific.
It is possible that people kill for the hell of it. As there are strong societal morays against it, going against such morays is termed sociopathic. It could be called a mental illness since the person does not react in the range of most humans.
There are what can be termed as soulless monsters out there. BTK, Gacy, Speck, Bundy, and Dahlmer all were sociopaths. These are not a result of abandoning religious values, but instead not caring that they are breaking societal morays.
Atheists have a moral code as well. It mirrors the societal morays that religious folks love to claim as their own. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 07:26:18 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
Maybe you are being facetious, but personal redemption is the value of religion. His actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values and in no way reflective of the teachings of Christ. Having said that, nobody is beyond redemption if he/she sincerely repents his/her evil acts and becomes receptive to God's grace. Since time immemorial people have exploited religion just as they will exploit anything for pecuniary gain, self- aggrandizement or to maintain the status quo, but that does not mean that whatever insidious acts the barbarians at the gate commit defines religious values.
Hi, soda, and welcome to SFN. I have a point of contention with your argument that "his actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values." This isn't entirely true. While one could convincingly argue that "religious values" as is generally held in Western society does not endorse, say, killing, torture and so on, it's difficult to argue that "abandoning" those values means that killing, torture, and so on are fair game. As an example, I'll cite myself. I have no religion and yet I do not kill or torture. Thus, my completely non-religious values acheive the same as your religious ones. (Except I don't go to church, beg pray to invisible gods, and so on.)
So what we can say is that this guy's killing and torture wasn't so much an abandonment of religious values as it was an adoption of some very anti-Western, anti-society values.
To deny that western values are in part based upon Judeo-Christian values is to turn a blind eye to history. I matain that historically, the perversion of Judeo-Christian values is responsible for killing, both on a personal level and on a grander scale such as state sponsored genocide such as we have witnessed in Central America, Iraq and Hiroshima to note just a few examples.
To deny that western values are based in part on Roman mythology is to turn a blind eye to history.
Has the same effect. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 07:37:24 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl...
What a bunch of bollix. I can call myself a Muslim but if I do not practice it, I am not a Muslim. It's really quite a simple concept to grasp if you don't have a hidden agenda such as religous bigotry. If you can not deal with the fact that there are people in the world who misrepresent themselves, then I shudder at what predicaments you are likely to get yourself into. Get some street smarts.
Since you're new at posting here there's a good possibility you don't know much about some of us. Just a little background to put this in perspective: I am nearly 50 years old and have literally lived on the streets for a short period of my life. I am, among other things, a professional magician. I've studied the arts and sciences of deception since I was in grade school. I am not a con man, but I would be very successful at it if I chose that as a vocation. I have in depth knowledge of some of the most sophisticated cons and cheating schemes ever devised. My street smarts aren't in question. The likelihood that I'll get in any predicaments because of some naivety about people misrepresenting themselves is pretty close to zero.
You seem to think it's up to you to determine other people's religions. It's not. It's up to each individual. People may or may not practice their religions in ways that you approve of, but those choices are up to them. I could say that you aren't a Christian because clearly you believe it is up to you to judge which religion other people belong to, or whether they are appropriately practicing their religions. I could say that since Christians don't judge others, you aren't a Christian. I won't say that, though, for two reasons. First, it isn't up to me to decide what religion you belong to. And second, as un-Christian as you appear in your judgment of other people's spirituality, the hypocrisy in your judgmentalism does seem to be a pretty prevalent Christian trait.
I don't recollect telling anybody here what religion if any to practice. I am merely expressing my beliefs. If anything I have emphasized free will. Since, I am slightly out-numbered here, I find it highly amusing that you think this army of little old me is trying to exert control over anybody.
The name of this place is the Skeptic Friends Network. This discussion fora exist for the purpose of analyzing assertions and forwarding critical thinking. You have made assertions which we are analyzing and rebutting.
Drop the poor persecuted Christian bit. It doesn't fly here. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 08:02:44 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
His actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values and in no way reflective of the teachings of Christ.
Sorry for jumping into this late. But the above quote highlights the myth of "christian morals".
From http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
The Federal Bureau of Prisons reports that 83% of inmates are some variant of Judeo-Christian belief. The above site breaks down the percentages into finer detail.
Atheists, making up only 8-16% of the USA population are disproportionately represented in the prison populations (0.21%). That's 2/10ths of a percent. Doesn't say much for the supposed "christian moral values". |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
| Edited by - Fripp on 08/19/2005 11:32:09 |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 08:08:35 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Is it that deep down christians are not completely sold on what they beleive, and they realize that maybe, just maybe, we need to take care of business now?
Pleco, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 08:33:44 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
Atheists, making up only 8-16% of the USA population are disproportionately represented in the prison populations (0.21%). That's 2/10ths of a percent. Doesn't say much for the supposed "christian moral values".
The easy and obvious apology for this stat is that atheists actually commit more crimes, but turn to religion as soon as they get locked up. A prison twist on "there are no atheists in foxholes."
No, I also find such an explanation unbelievable. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 08:41:49 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
The easy and obvious apology for this stat is that atheists actually commit more crimes, but turn to religion as soon as they get locked up. A prison twist on "there are no atheists in foxholes."
No, I also find such an explanation unbelievable.
Oh yeah, I'm always ready for that:
1) "Prove it."
Or...
2) "Isn't it funny that God's awesomeness is only apparent AFTER someone commits a crime? Shouldn't the knowledge and presence of an all-powerful and all-loving God HINDER such atrocities from happening in the first place." Which is responded with the "free will" argument.
And if I'm in a foxhole and someone is praying to Jesus vs shooting the enemy and trying to survive, I'LL shoot him. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 08:48:39 [Permalink]
|
On the Not A True Scotsman fallacy:
The defining characteristic of a Christian is one who believes that Jesus is the son of an all mighty powerful god, and that this is the only god there is.
So if a person doesn't believe in this, he is not a Christian, and if he does, he is. This makes it entirely possible for someone to appear as a Christian, but not be one. However, soda_farl, you have no reason to say that he is pretending to be a Christian without any proof. His actions don't have to reflect his thoughts, or he could just be interpreting the Bible another way, but still believe in Jesus.
But I don't think it is that simple. Let me give an example about skepticism. Lets say that person X says that they are a critical thinker, a skeptic. But then they go on posting fallacy after fallacy, praise pseudoscience, and dismiss evolution. Is this a skeptic?
Clearly, the answer to me is no. However, how is this any different from the case with Rader? |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 08/19/2005 08:50:01 |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
