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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
 Posted - 08/19/2005 : 10:22:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
Atheists, making up only 8-16% of the USA population are disproportionately represented in the prison populations (0.21%). That's 2/10ths of a percent. Doesn't say much for the supposed "christian moral values".
The easy and obvious apology for this stat is that atheists actually commit more crimes, but turn to religion as soon as they get locked up. A prison twist on "there are no atheists in foxholes."
Another argument is that atheists actually commit more crimes, but they don't get caught as often. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 10:28:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
Atheists, making up only 8-16% of the USA population are disproportionately represented in the prison populations (0.21%). That's 2/10ths of a percent. Doesn't say much for the supposed "christian moral values".
The easy and obvious apology for this stat is that atheists actually commit more crimes, but turn to religion as soon as they get locked up. A prison twist on "there are no atheists in foxholes."
No, I also find such an explanation unbelievable.
Actually, Fripp's stat is close to correct. However, the reason that atheists are so severly under represented in the jug is not that they commit fewer crimes, but that they are smart enough to get caught less often... 
A True Scotsman:
Well a Scotsman clad in kilt left a bar on evening fair
And one could tell by how we walked that he drunk more than his share
He fumbled round until he could no longer keep his feet
Then he stumbled off into the grass to sleep beside the street
About that time two young and lovely girls just happend by
And one says to the other with a twinkle in her eye
See yon sleeping Scotsman so strong and handsome built
I wonder if it's true what they don't wear beneath the kilt
They crept up on that sleeping Scotsman quiet as could be
Lifted up his kilt about an inch so they could see
And there behold, for them to see, beneath his Scottish skirt
Was nothing more than God had graced him with upon his birth
They marveled for a moment, then one said we must be gone
Let's leave a present for our friend, before we move along
As a gift they left a blue silk ribbon, tied into a bow
Around the bonnie star, the Scots kilt did lift and show
Now the Scotsman woke to nature's call and stumbled towards a tree
Behind a bush, he lift his kilt and gawks at what he sees
And in a startled voice he says to what's before his eyes.
O lad I don't know where you been but I see you won first prize
Edit: Oops! I see astropin edged me out. Great minds think alike, eh?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 08/19/2005 10:32:13 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 10:40:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by astropin
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
Atheists, making up only 8-16% of the USA population are disproportionately represented in the prison populations (0.21%). That's 2/10ths of a percent. Doesn't say much for the supposed "christian moral values".
The easy and obvious apology for this stat is that atheists actually commit more crimes, but turn to religion as soon as they get locked up. A prison twist on "there are no atheists in foxholes."
Another argument is that atheists actually commit more crimes, but they don't get caught as often.
Why accept these stats without question? I haven't seen any surveys of who is an atheist in the US that wasn't poorly done and wasn't meaningless. The surveys would have to ask the question in a pretty careful way including all variations of agnostics, atheists, and those that use the term spiritual but don't mean the Christian or other established religion's god. And the surveyors' definition of atheist can slant how they even word the question. "Do you believe in God; do you think god is possible, do you believe there is/are no god/s; etc.?" There are many many ways to word the question that will result in different answers.
My take on this statistic is with 99% (supposed) people in prison believe in God it must not make one very 'moral' to believe now does it?
(Edited to correct my mistake reading .21 as 21.) |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/19/2005 10:42:28 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 11:00:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
Atheists, making up only 8-16% of the USA population are disproportionately represented in the prison populations (0.21%). That's 2/10ths of a percent. Doesn't say much for the supposed "christian moral values".
The easy and obvious apology for this stat is that atheists actually commit more crimes, but turn to religion as soon as they get locked up. A prison twist on "there are no atheists in foxholes."
No, I also find such an explanation unbelievable.
Actually, Fripp's stat is close to correct. However, the reason that atheists are so severly under represented in the jug is not that they commit fewer crimes, but that they are smart enough to get caught less often...
A True Scotsman:
Well a Scotsman clad in kilt left a bar on evening fair
And one could tell by how we walked that he drunk more than his share
He fumbled round until he could no longer keep his feet
Then he stumbled off into the grass to sleep beside the street
About that time two young and lovely girls just happend by
And one says to the other with a twinkle in her eye
See yon sleeping Scotsman so strong and handsome built
I wonder if it's true what they don't wear beneath the kilt
They crept up on that sleeping Scotsman quiet as could be
Lifted up his kilt about an inch so they could see
And there behold, for them to see, beneath his Scottish skirt
Was nothing more than God had graced him with upon his birth
They marveled for a moment, then one said we must be gone
Let's leave a present for our friend, before we move along
As a gift they left a blue silk ribbon, tied into a bow
Around the bonnie star, the Scots kilt did lift and show
Now the Scotsman woke to nature's call and stumbled towards a tree
Behind a bush, he lift his kilt and gawks at what he sees
And in a startled voice he says to what's before his eyes.
O lad I don't know where you been but I see you won first prize
Edit: Oops! I see astropin edged me out. Great minds think alike, eh?
Now I've got that song stuck in my head.
A rum-tum diddle diddle die di do
A rum tum diddly die do
Ach lad, I don't know where ya been but I see you've won first prize.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 11:59:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Now I've got that song stuck in my head.
A rum-tum diddle diddle die di do
A rum tum diddly die do
Ach lad, I don't know where ya been but I see you've won first prize.
Good'un, ain't it?
I've been waiting for an excuse to put it up for a long time. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 12:45:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Why accept these stats without question? I haven't seen any surveys of who is an atheist in the US that wasn't poorly done and wasn't meaningless. The surveys would have to ask the question in a pretty careful way including all variations of agnostics, atheists, and those that use the term spiritual but don't mean the Christian or other established religion's god. And the surveyors' definition of atheist can slant how they even word the question. "Do you believe in God; do you think god is possible, do you believe there is/are no god/s; etc.?" There are many many ways to word the question that will result in different answers.
My take on this statistic is with 99% (supposed) people in prison believe in God it must not make one very 'moral' to believe now does it?
(Edited to correct my mistake reading .21 as 21.)
Hey, B, here's a link which talks about some of the concerns you address. Nevertheless, given this:quote:
According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 6% of those in the United States do not believe in God. According to a 2004 survey commissioned by the BBC( v ), 9% of Americans do not believe in God. Rice (2003) found that 3.8% of Americans don't believe in God or “a spirit or life force.” According to Hout and Fischer (2002), between 3-4.5% of Americans are either atheist or agnostic; Marwell and Demerath (2003) suggest that a more accurate estimate is 7%. According to Paul (2002) and Froese (2001), 8% of Americans are atheist or agnostic. The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that 16% of Americans claim no religious affiliation (Kang, 2004). According to Gallup and Lindsay (1999:99), 5% of Americans do not believe in God or a “Higher Power.”
we can safely conclude that somewhere around 5% +/-2% are atheists. As for prison population, I have no idea, and couldn't find many studies which talked about it... |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 08/20/2005 10:40:43 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 13:41:03 [Permalink]
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I read the stats at American Atheist a couple of years ago. If I recall right, they claimed some 8% were either atheist or agnostic and the prison population disbelieved at some 2%.
But who knows, really? Everybody likes to be liked (well, almost), and some might answer the question in a way that they think the interviewer might want to hear. And there is some some hazard in trusting the word of a convict to start with.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 18:52:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby
The question of intent is not important to me.
He used a christian construct te explain and excuse his actions and a christian construct to gain the trust of some of his victims.
Why do so many criminals hide behind God?
What good is your god?
Dear Dry by,
He was a con man and a sociopath who masqueraded as a normal person as is the m.o. of sociopaths. Sociopaths are usually of very high intelligence but totally lacking in emphathy and are without conscience. Yet, they are capable of blending into a community almost seamlessly. It's all a big game to them. The only reason they get caught is because their arrogance about their superior intelligence leads them to make sloppy mistakes. In other words if he lived in the West Bank he would pretend to be an Orthodox Jew, if he lived in the Bible Belt he would pretend to be a fundamentalist Christian, etc. I suspect that his claim that the devil made him do it was a ploy to influence the jury before his sentencing hearing.
Respectfully submitted,
Soda Farl
Now, can we stop calling each other names?
Sorry it took me so long to respond, but I had things to attend to.
I can only presume from the tone of this and the immediately following post that you are being either sarcastic or patronising.
If my mother had have had wheels, I would have been born a bycycle.
Stick to the facts, Jack.
No, I was sincere. I won't be extending an olive branch again because I won't be participating in the group any longer. I was shocked by the amount of posts that I made in a single night, and realistically, I could not possibly keep up that pace. So, it was nice meeting everyone and I wish you all well.
Ancient Sufi Prayer
I offer you peace.
I offer you joy.
I offer you friendship.
I hear your needs.
I see your beauty.
Our wisdom comes from
a Higher Source.
Our wisdom comes from
a deeper source.
I honor that Source in you. |
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