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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 09/05/2005 : 12:36:33 [Permalink]
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| There was no mistake. Murder was the intent, and murder was the result. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 13:02:08 [Permalink]
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Filthy wrote: On the one hand, we broke it, thus we are morally bound fix it.
It is possible to break something that you can't fix.
But on the other, as long as there is an American boot on Iraqi soil, the fight will never end.
Exactly.
Either way, I think that civil war is inevitable, it it hasn't started already. It looks to me that no matter what we do, it's wrong.
No, we were wrong to start the war in the first place. Now we are where we are, and we have new choices to make that can be right or wrong (assuming our values are with human interest). Given what you've already said, I think the right choice is clear. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 13:07:31 [Permalink]
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I totally agree with Dry_vby about the UN being "some other corrupt organization". Only Iraqis - the people who live, work and have history in Iraq - can appropriately deal with the problem. Not that they will appropriately deal with it - they'll probably just fuck it up again in a different way from before. But the idea that a foreign power can come in a fix the situation - that's ridiculous. Trade with them. Let charitable and humanitarian organizations go there, or donate or work for such organizations. That's all we can do concerning Iraq's internal problems.
Yes, the US made a bad situation (oppressive dictatorship) worse (chaotic civil war that will probably fall into being an extremist Muslim dictatorship), but acting on guilt is foolish and destructive. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/05/2005 13:09:20 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 14:53:44 [Permalink]
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The US military should pull out of Iraq now. Here's why:
Reason #1It is absurd to think that US (or even UN or some other form of international) military involvement with Iraq can resolve age-old conflicts of a nation divided by multiple religious and ethnic factions.
The new Iraqi constitution may seem like a decent enough compromise – what with how it establishes Iraq as a democracy that will defend human rights while simultaneously claiming inspiration from Islamic laws and moral codes. But whether or not those compromises are even feasible is a moot point since half the country refused to vote at all, thereby rejecting the whole system before it even gets off the ground.
The insurgents are killing far more US soldiers than US soldiers are killing them. They are not even a unified group, and thus, we cannot fight against them with any of the usual military strategies.
On top of that, tensions are only rising. We can't even trust the Iraqi police. http://www.embassymag.ca/html/index.php?display=story&full_path=/2005/august/24/police/ Strong racists feelings, words and actions abound on both the sides of the US troops and the Iraqi people.
Reason #2 Most Iraqis want the US military out of their country, and the percentage of that opinions has been increasing for months.
From January 2005: Now every major poll shows an ever-larger majority of Iraqis want the Americans to leave." -Newsweek
From April, 2004: Only a third of the Iraqi people now believe that the American-led occupation of their country is doing more good than harm, and a solid majority support an immediate military pullout even though they fear that could put them in greater danger, according to a new USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll. -USA Today
Reason #3The number of Americans who want the troops brought home has been steadily rising, and the popularity of the war and occupation has been steadily dropping.
From June 2005, Increase Calls for Troop Withdrawal http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=246
Reason #4 There is no economic justification for US spending on the occupation of Iraq. (See this cartoon: http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/assault_on_the_states.html)
That the US has spread itself too thin is plain to see when we look at New Orleans, where federal funding for the levies was cut and cut and cut, and even if they had got their funding, it would have only been to make the levies strong enough to handle a category 3 hurricane (Katrina was a category 5) http://www.factcheck.org/article344.html
Social programs have been cut all over the country. State and local taxes have risen almost universally to compensate for those cuts. (See Christian Science Monitor article “As US cuts taxes, states hike them” http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0528/p01s02-usec.html) A budget is a zero-sum game. Money used for one thing cannot be used for another. And we need the money here.
The US National Debt Clock: http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
Reason #5 We are weakening our military for a non-necessary cause.
“Of the 150,000 US troops in Iraq, nearly 50 percent are from the Guard and Reserve.” –AP, January, 2005
Again, look at the hurricane disaster. Thousands of Mississippi and Louisiana guard troops and equipment were in Iraq when this happened. One of the major reasons to have a guard is to deal with in-country emergencies.
To deal with the drop in military recruitment, the government has already:
- Raised the age requirement for enlisted men and women
- Expanded ‘stop loss' orders
- Doubled length of tour of duties for those serving in Iraq
Not to mention the lack of proper equipment for our soldiers there. Or have we forgotten the lack of body armor that families and others were donating to the troops in Iraq a year ago? http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-26-body-armor_x.htm
Marine Corps units fighting in some |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/05/2005 14:59:08 |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 15:49:14 [Permalink]
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| I like Juan Cole's proposal (scroll down to August 22 for his 10 point plan). Professor Cole's blog has been very informative oveer the last few years and he's pretty accurate at analyzing what's really going on. |
- TW
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 16:45:22 [Permalink]
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Professor Cole's proposal is obviously well thought-out and explained clearly. However, this criticism was a bit of a pot shot:
"Personally, I think 'US out now' as a simple mantra neglects to consider the full range of possible disasters that could ensue."
Calling for "US out now" in-of-itself is not a plan, nor do its advocates claim it to be. It is a general political stance that calls for withdrawal out of Iraq to be an immediate priority that our government is acting on starting now. Thus, many organizations and individuals that are advocating a withdrawal of troops from Iraq would see Cole's proposal as the beginnings of a good plan for doing so. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 17:09:55 [Permalink]
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| This government, (Bush et al) is a criminal government. We need it to stop its crimes. That's all that we need to say at this point. If we have the ability to change the government, then we can ask it to do something else. Right now, we need to stop the criminal activity. It is a crime to attack other countries. Iraq has been under attack now for many years. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 19:21:33 [Permalink]
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I'm proud to have been against this idiocy from the start. I believe "US Out Now" is the right approach, but expedite the process by getting the demented George Bush out of the system immediately. I view the entire mess as a huge waste without enough, if any, tangible net advantages to be worth staying involved. Here is a recently published study itemizing the cash and social costs of the campaign of terror against the citizens of Iraq...
The Mounting Costs of War and the Case for Bringing Home the Troops
I'd sincerely like to see the facts from the other side, like the accumulated data showing all the benefits realized so far. I'd like to know how many lives have been saved, how many verifiable terrorist attacks have been thwarted, how much better the Iraqis feel about living there, how much better the Americans feel about living here, you know, the optimistic happy side of the picture.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 22:22:09 [Permalink]
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Since the beginning of the American invasion of Iraq, I've been calling for the rebuilding of infrastructure. Once the people of Iraq can see with their own eyes that American troops are there to restore power, fresh water and sanitation etc. their opinion will slowly shift.
I believe Dave_W is on the right track: Armed forces should only concern themselves with protecting the rebuilding of infrastructure. History has already shown that way too often when America has actively tried to mess with the political governance of other nations, things have gone from bad to worse. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2005 : 01:12:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Since the beginning of the American invasion of Iraq, I've been calling for the rebuilding of infrastructure. Once the people of Iraq can see with their own eyes that American troops are there to restore power, fresh water and sanitation etc. their opinion will slowly shift.
I believe Dave_W is on the right track: Armed forces should only concern themselves with protecting the rebuilding of infrastructure. History has already shown that way too often when America has actively tried to mess with the political governance of other nations, things have gone from bad to worse.
And wait till the suffering in the south dies down here. Do you think we might hear something like, "We Iraqis have been without services for >year and y'all are griping about a few weeks." I haven't heard any mention of the comparison on the news yet but it's hard to ignore that elephant. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2005 : 08:48:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
And wait till the suffering in the south dies down here. Do you think we might hear something like, "We Iraqis have been without services for >year and y'all are griping about a few weeks." I haven't heard any mention of the comparison on the news yet but it's hard to ignore that elephant.
To start with, Bush committed a war crime by invading Iraq.
When American troops had moved in, he neglected the obligation by the Geneva convention to provide internal security of the invaded land.
US troops shouldn't be there in the first place. Now he bloody well has to own his fucking mess. That includes fixing all infrastructure that was damaged during the invasion.
That Bush can not take care of domestic problems is of minor concern for the international community. I do have sympathy for your suffering countrymen in New Orleans and affected areas, but it is somewhat dulled by the fact that it was the people of the United States that decided to put the Imbecile-In-Charge in the place where he could do most damage.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2005 : 08:54:01 [Permalink]
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| Only a slight majority of the people...but unfortunately the rest of us have to suffer for that. Part of the Social Contract (until 2008 that is) |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2005 : 13:14:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
.....I do have sympathy for your suffering countrymen in New Orleans and affected areas, but it is somewhat dulled by the fact that it was the people of the United States that decided to put the Imbecile-In-Charge in the place where he could do most damage.
Some of us are just as sorry as you are, and just as angry. |
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2005 : 15:10:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
To start with, Bush committed a war crime by invading Iraq.
When American troops had moved in, he neglected the obligation by the Geneva convention to provide internal security of the invaded land.
If this report holds true internal security might even be worse then previously thought (source 2).
quote:
Insurgents Assert Control Over Town Near Syrian Border
BAGHDAD, Sept. 5 -- Fighters loyal to militant leader Abu Musab Zarqawi asserted control over the key Iraqi border town of Qaim on Monday, killing U.S. collaborators and enforcing strict Islamic law...
From source 2:
quote:
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's foreign-led al-Qaida in Iraq took open control Monday of a key western town at the Syrian border, deploying its guerrilla fighters in the streets and flying al-Zarqawi's black banner from rooftops
It's probably fairly straightforward for the US military to retake the town, but it's a bad sign that this is even possible. |
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2005 : 15:56:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
.....I do have sympathy for your suffering countrymen in New Orleans and affected areas, but it is somewhat dulled by the fact that it was the people of the United States that decided to put the Imbecile-In-Charge in the place where he could do most damage.
Some of us are just as sorry as you are, and just as angry.
Thank you, beskeptigal, for posting this link.
It heartened me a great deal.
It appears there is some hope, after all.
Now if only the Bush dictatorship would take some responsability.....
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"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
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