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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
 Posted - 10/24/2001 : 22:48:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Garrette, what was your point about the military? In 20 years I never (okay, maybe once) used physical force against the airmen who worked for me. The military truly frowns upon this.
Lisa
I was not intending to imply that anyone in the military used physical force (outside battle, I mean); I certainly never did. I was merely trying to say that any ethical code or moral stricture cannot be absolute and any organization imposing such a code will recognize that fact as the military does. Though I daresay that the military considers the 'no-torture' rule to be one of the absolute aspects of its code.
Maybe I just muddled it more. Sorry.
My kids still love me. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2001 : 23:02:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
I was not intending to imply that anyone in the military used physical force (outside battle, I mean); I certainly never did. I was merely trying to say that any ethical code or moral stricture cannot be absolute and any organization imposing such a code will recognize that fact as the military does. Though I daresay that the military considers the 'no-torture' rule to be one of the absolute aspects of its code.
Maybe I just muddled it more. Sorry.
No I mis-understood. My bad.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2001 : 00:13:06 [Permalink]
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I've another question. How effective is torture, anyway? Are there more efficient ways of gathering information from a reluctant interrogatee? I've seen a lot of research casting doubt on its effectiveness, but most of them are clearly politically (vice skeptically) motivated and I've found nothing actually attempting to show how effective torture is at extracting the truth from someone.
In my experience, placing subjects under duress works very well. But fortunately my experience is somewhat limited...
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2001 : 00:33:37 [Permalink]
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My experience with duress (not torture) cannot be called scientific, but I have found it to be effective when applied properly to the appropriate personality types.
What I find a bit puzzling is the argument that people will lie under duress/torture merely to stop it. This may be true, but they will also lie in the absence of duress/torture for other reasons. The trick is to find what route will elicit the truth and concurrently to be wise enough to spot it when it happens.
My kids still love me. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2001 : 13:08:18 [Permalink]
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Duress?
Threaten to put me into a room with a bunch of small children! Is there anything in specific you'd like me to admit to?
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 03:07:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Is there anything in specific you'd like me to admit to?
Lisa
Admit to? Nah. Say 'yes' to, maybe...
How long is hubby gone?
(Okay, slap me now; it's been a long evening and night)
My kids still love me. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 09:28:03 [Permalink]
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Probably until about mid December. We hate being seperated, but dang, $300 a day can't be sneezed at.
Oh, BTW, consider yourself slapped.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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HardCore
New Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2001 : 18:01:07 [Permalink]
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Threat of torture and threat of death are entirely separate. This was demonstrated frequently in Vietnam, where many rabid Vietcong nationalists would gladly die for their cause (just like Islamic fundamentalists) but would often talk if they thought they were to be tortured or maimed, but not killed. Torture works and has been a standard method of getting information for recorded history. Of course a circumstance could arise where any of us might find it necessary to do a repugnant thing to accomplish a higher good.
"Faith is when you believe something nobody in his right mind would believe." - Archie Bunker |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2001 : 18:50:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Threat of torture and threat of death are entirely separate. This was demonstrated frequently in Vietnam, where many rabid Vietcong nationalists would gladly die for their cause (just like Islamic fundamentalists) but would often talk if they thought they were to be tortured or maimed, but not killed. Torture works and has been a standard method of getting information for recorded history. Of course a circumstance could arise where any of us might find it necessary to do a repugnant thing to accomplish a higher good.
"Faith is when you believe something nobody in his right mind would believe." - Archie Bunker
There may have been a religeous reason for that. According to what they believe, they can't go to heaven if there's any body part missing. Is this some sort of a Buddhist belief? Anyway, the Koreans (nasty little sods in a fight) would start lopping off various fingers and toes.
That's where "what's your definition?" comes in. Lop off one of my fingers, and not only will it hurt like hell, I won't be able to play the flute as well, or flip off a moron. Lop off someone elses finger, and they may believe they'll face eternal damnation.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2001 : 19:03:52 [Permalink]
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I voted *No*. I am also against the death penalty. However, I would not get into marches and join groups over it. They simply are my personal moral opinions. My reasons also are personal.
ljbrs 
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2001 : 19:15:43 [Permalink]
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If someone had information I needed, it would give me a certain amount of satisfaction to beat the crap out of them. Hey, I've already told you I'm somewhat slippery slope when it comes to stuff like ethics and morals.
However, wouldn't that bring me down to the level of people who deny half their population any rights whatsoever, and think it's cool to fly airplanes into buildings, killing thousands? How long is my trip back to what I can consider "normal".
I think it would take a very special person to take up torture as a career. Let that person stay the heck out of my country.
It would be wonderful if all countries thought that torture was a sick aberration. It would be nice if they thought that was about terrorism too. I'm not holding my breath.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2001 : 23:11:57 [Permalink]
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Got this today:
'Amnesty International is concerned that in the Washington Post edition of
October 22, an "experienced FBI agent involved in the [September 11th]
investigation," in discussing the use of torture, is quoted as saying, "It
could get to that spot where we could go to pressure." AI is also
disturbed by numerous reports that many individuals arrested in the wake of
the attacks were denied prompt access to lawyers or relatives, and is
concerned about the physical conditions of some of those in custody.
Please write to Attorney General Ashcroft to urge him to ensure that
torture and other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or
punishment are not used under any circumstances and that detainees are not
mistreated and are provided prompt access to counsel. AI opposes the use
of torture, cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment under any
circumstances and is concerned by recent media reports indicating that US
Government officials may be considering the use of torture against
detainees who have not cooperated with law enforcement officials.
Visit http://amnestyusa.policy.net/general
http://amnestyusa.policy.net/general'
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/27/2001 23:14:04 |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 02:20:50 [Permalink]
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Short answer, No! Its unreliable to boot. Could there be situations, where i might resort to it, yes. It would remain an 'immoral' solution, still.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2001 : 02:44:45 [Permalink]
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Quick answer: only when used on authoritarian scum.
Boris Karloff died for your sins. |
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2001 : 21:38:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
I've another question. How effective is torture, anyway?
during the 30's the soviet governtment used torture extensivly. they found that the chief of the red army was a british spy, they discovered that loyal bolsheviks who has worked closely with lenin were wreckers and sabotours. they discovered that jewish doctors were plotting the medical murder of leading figures in the communist party.
with torture you can make anyone say anything, but there's no way of telling if its true.
so in addition to being immoral it is unreliable. shit, if torture really worked effectivly, our results driven culture would have made it moral as well.
comrade billyboy |
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