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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 10/31/2001 : 23:55:19 [Permalink]
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Once you believe, you are no longer without knowledge because you've made a decision to believe. I think you are mistaking agnostics with deists.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2001 : 03:34:55 [Permalink]
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My understanding of deism is the idea that yes, god created the world, but it really doesn't matter what we believe about it, because it's off to other things and doesn't have anything to do with this place any more.
I didn't have what I said quite right, so I'll let you read what I read for yourself.
Certainly not the last word, but:
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/blfaq_agnosticism.htm
quote:
Once you believe, you are no longer without knowledge because you've made a decision to believe. I think you are mistaking agnostics with deists.
@tomic
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens
Edited by - Gorgo on 11/01/2001 03:48:49 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2001 : 06:14:17 [Permalink]
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A theist is someone who believes in a god or gods. Everyone else is an atheist, whether or not you think it is possible to know either way. Agnostics are fence-sitting atheists ( ).
To put it another way, if you don't have a positive god belief, you are an atheist. So-called agnostics don't have a positive god believe (they claim they don't know, and that it isn't possible to know, if a god or gods exist). Therefore, technically speaking, they are atheists.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2001 : 06:23:15 [Permalink]
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Well, the point of the article is that agnosticism can also say that "I don't know," which leaves some to say "but it is not by knowledge but by faith that I believe."
Now, that may not be a proper definition, I don't know, but I think that is the idea.
quote:
A theist is someone who believes in a god or gods. Everyone else is an atheist, whether or not you think it is possible to know either way. Agnostics are fence-sitting atheists ().
To put it another way, if you don't have a positive god belief, you are an atheist. So-called agnostics don't have a positive god believe (they claim they don't know, and that it isn't possible to know, if a god or gods exist). Therefore, technically speaking, they are atheists.
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2001 : 08:05:32 [Permalink]
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I thought deism was defined as a belief in a god but without any of the phony assumptions and special insights made up by believers of specific gods. But deists do have faith which is the thing that separates agnostics/atheists and deists/the restofthem.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Grand Nubian
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2001 : 08:47:02 [Permalink]
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One can be a theist and be agnostic. One can believe in god but admit that one doesn't have knoeldge.
One can also be an atheist and agnostice. This is the case with most atheists. One doesn't have knowledge nor a belief.
People accuse agnostics of fence riding but they actually are the more honest of both sides.
In addition, if one would get very nit picky, every is an atheist.
Christians have a lack of belief in allah and every otehr god besides their god. So they are atheists in regards to lots of the thousands of gods.
I am an atheist to one more god then they are...the christian god.
In truth, every one is atheist and agnostic, but only certian people admit this.
No one has knowledge and no one has a belief in EVERY god.
Edited by - grand nubian on 11/01/2001 08:49:48 |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2001 : 08:58:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
In truth, every one is atheist and agnostic, but only certian people admit this.
Gotta disagree here. Some people define atheism as denial of the existance of a god or gods. My personal views go even further. I hold the view that the universe and everything in it is a result of natural processes, and there is no need to introduce any kind of supernatural element into the discussion whatsoever. In other words, I don't even invoke a concept which I then need to deny.
My atheism is absolute.
Free speech; excercise it or SHUT UP! |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2001 : 09:15:43 [Permalink]
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So if atheism technically equals nothing (supernatural), maybe we should call ourselves nothingists (I considered 'supernatural nothingists' but realized that would still give 'supernatural' tacit default status, which is contrary to my whole point) and those who believe in something (supernatural) supernatural anothingists. That way we get to be the semantic default as well as the logical default.
There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts! It wasn't my fault, I swear to god! - Jake Blues |
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Grand Nubian
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2001 : 13:51:39 [Permalink]
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Okay, look, if you deny the existence of whatever, and a christian denies the existence of whatever then you both are atheists.
The one difference is the christians belief in christianity. But...the christians is atheist times 8000 thousand or so.
Atheists are people that don't believe in a god(supernatural or not).
Doesn't matter to what degree.
Also, no one said you have to believe in god in order to deny it, you only have to be presented with the idea then you deny the idea is a correct representation of the truth.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2001 : 15:03:44 [Permalink]
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Hi y'all,
I've been off-line for some months, but am finally back.
Love what you've done with the place.
Living in the bowels of the Bible Belt, I've run across this attitude before. I'm an agnostic - I don't know and don't believe anybody else does, either. Some of my more rabid neighbors find this unacceptable.
I find it sad that this person is so narrow minded that she'd condem all non-believers to exile, even those who have served their country faithfully for much of their lives.
I find it sad, but not unusual. Throughout history, organized religon as practiced by fundimentalists has caused vast human misery and continues to do so.
I fail to see the difference, except perhaps in degree and authority, between the Taliban and the misguided lady who made those remarks.
J. Falwell & Son must be proud of her.
f
The more I learn about people, the better I like rattlesnakes. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2001 : 15:10:33 [Permalink]
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grand nubian --One can be a theist and be agnostic. One can believe in god but admit that one doesn't have knoeldge.
I wouldn't think so. But that would explain why people like Darwin Alogos would claim that they were raised as Agnostics.
How one would go about "believing" when you didn't know if something was real is beyond me. Wouldn't you think that the action of believing in itself is an assumption of knowledge?
People accuse agnostics of fence riding but they actually are the more honest of both sides.
We seem to be falling back on the Roman Catholic Dictionary definition that an Atheist is a person who holds the belief that God does not exist.
Asking the RC's for a definition of Atheism is like asking a Nazi what a Jew is.
A claim that a deity exists is made by people, who offer no supporting evidence. Atheists don't accept this baseless claim. How is this any less honest than an Agnostic position?
Agnostics say there is no evidence so there is no why for them to know.
Atheists say there is no evidence so there is no way that the claimant can know, and so do not accept the claim.
Because in fact Atheist/Agnostics aren't making a judgement on whether a god exists or not. They have not been presented with a god to make a decision about. What they have been presented with is a claim made by PEOPLE. A/A are making a judgement on if this human CLAIM holds water.
I wonder, if Theists were more affable to those whose opinions differed from their own, would anyone feel the need to be called an Agnostic?
PhDreamer --So if atheism technically equals nothing (supernatural), maybe we should call ourselves nothingists
It's odd to be in groups that are titled by what they are not, rather than what they are.
For instance I'm a non-smoker. I've never even tried a cigarette; so why should I have a title that mentions them? The title non-smoker tells you nothing at all about anything that I actually do.
I'm also an Atheist and that too tells you absolutely nothing about anything that I actually do. Only what I don't.
Perhaps I should state my race as Aasian, That would tell you one of the things I'm not.
Why does this anti-title thing not make any sense to me, I'm astupid?
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2001 : 17:03:58 [Permalink]
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*sarcasm*
I just love it when I hear people say "Even Satan believes in God!"
/sarcasm
The implication being, of course, that we atheists are even worse that Satan!
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2001 : 17:31:12 [Permalink]
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I have to agree with slater on this one. The SFN staff used to kick this one around quite often and eventually came to the conclusion that if you believe you are not an agnostic because you are no longer on the fence. Believing is indeed an assumption, one that agnostics have not made.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Grand Nubian
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2001 : 19:43:50 [Permalink]
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I hate when people reply to me and say things like "you seems to be saying" then present an arguement based on the "seemed".
I think to myself...why couldn't they just respond to what I said right there in black and white? Why do they modify it and then refute the modification?
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2001 : 21:02:29 [Permalink]
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You seems (seems ?) to be saying right there in black and white.
But it's really blue and white 
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aaaa...make that blue and grey
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
Edited by - slater on 11/01/2001 21:04:05 |
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