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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2001 : 04:17:53
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and I'm an avowed Republican/Conservative.
First the media: who are these dunderheads spouting nonsense about the military situation in Afghanistan? "The 'weather window' is closing..." Poppycock. The army doesn't call rain and snow "Ranger Sunshine" for nothing. Inclement weather ops is a forte for our ground forces and, with some exceptions, for our aircraft. Hell; gives us one widespread 3" snowfall followed by two days of clear weather (not a rarity over there) and voila! we will know exactly all the movements of all their troops in the mountains; couple this with an analysis of convergant tracks and double voila! some wonderful hints on hq's, bases, depots, etc.
And back to the Ranger Sunshine, small unit movements (like Special Forces and Rangers) are hardest to detect in bad weather; give me a platoon of rangers or marine recons, a target area, lots of ordnance, and a thunderstorm and I'll bring hell to your doorstep.
Second, the conservatives, specifically the pundits, not the politicians: what idiocy is this criticism of Joe Biden? Don't get me wrong; I have little or no respect for Mr. Biden since his presidential campaign some years ago and his performance since. But he made some accurate comments recently that have got him lambasted by the conservative talk folks (to be fair, also by some not-so-conservative media) to the point where Colin Powell and, get this, Jesse Helms, had to come out and say that Biden's comments were taken out of context.
Sorry that I have no link, but here's a summary of what Biden said in an off-the-cuff interview (no prepared statements, mind you):
1. I'm not qualified to comment on the military aspects of the situation, but the military assures me that things are going well and will continue to do so.
2. I have to take the military at their word since I'm not qualified to comment on it, but, yes, it does seem to a layperson that the oncoming winter will make things more difficult. Still, I have to trust the military since I'm not qualified to comment on it.
3. SEPARATE FROM THE MILITARY ASPECTS the political situation will be better served by ground forces going after specific targets than by a long bombing campaign. This is true even given that their will be more American casualties in a ground campaign. The American public will stay behind it longer and the Islamic nations supporting us now will be more likely to do so if they believe we are being more precise in the application of force.
Granted, Senator Biden said this in a lot more roundabout, repetitive, halting, faltering way, but it is what he said.
The pundits jumped on him for 'breaking ranks', criticizing the military, telling the president he's using the wrong strategy, etc.
Frankly, I think he's dead on correct, and he went out of his way to say several times that he's not qualified to comment on the military aspect of the issue. But even if he's wrong about the political aspect, it's just a damned opinion that he was asked to give; it's not a criticism at all.
Sorry. Had to let off steam. Haven't stopped getting upset at the creation of the Homeland Security Secretary position and the recent legislation showing I was right to fear it.
P.S. I'm not becoming a Democrat, though...
My kids still love me.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2001 : 04:43:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
and I'm an avowed Republican/Conservative.
P.S. I'm not becoming a Democrat, though...
My kids still love me.
Hey that's why there are Independents (they're not affiliated  - though in all honesty I do more often vote in the republican vein than democrat.)
How soon then before we return to the Alien and Sedition Acts or in a sense McCarthyism with the way people are requesting more and more security? This is one of my worries with the new Homeland Security and the enhancing of the ability to tap and monitor people's correspondence - especially since we'll have to work to have the law repealed or declared unconstitutional. How long will that take with fear running rampant?
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2001 : 05:11:05 [Permalink]
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It's no secret what I think of the media and the "war," but they're getting ridiculous. Three weeks into this thing, they're asking if it's taking too long.
quote:
First the media: who are these dunderheads
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2001 : 06:23:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Second, the conservatives, specifically the pundits, not the politicians: what idiocy is this criticism of Joe Biden? Don't get me wrong; I have little or no respect for Mr. Biden since his presidential campaign some years ago and his performance since. But he made some accurate comments recently that have got him lambasted by the conservative talk folks (to be fair, also by some not-so-conservative media) to the point where Colin Powell and, get this, Jesse Helms, had to come out and say that Biden's comments were taken out of context.
Sorry that I have no link, but here's a summary of what Biden said in an off-the-cuff interview (no prepared statements, mind you):
1. I'm not qualified to comment on the military aspects of the situation, but the military assures me that things are going well and will continue to do so.
2. I have to take the military at their word since I'm not qualified to comment on it, but, yes, it does seem to a layperson that the oncoming winter will make things more difficult. Still, I have to trust the military since I'm not qualified to comment on it.
3. SEPARATE FROM THE MILITARY ASPECTS the political situation will be better served by ground forces going after specific targets than by a long bombing campaign. This is true even given that their will be more American casualties in a ground campaign. The American public will stay behind it longer and the Islamic nations supporting us now will be more likely to do so if they believe we are being more precise in the application of force.
Huh? The conservative talk folk say he's criticizing the military? From what I can tell, those are the best answers he can give. What, do they want him to tell the media every single move our troops make even though he knows nothing? Stupid [beep][beep][beep]
"Hey Butt-Head check this book out! There's a talking snake, a naked chick, then some guy puts a leaf on his SCHLONG!!" [Beavis and Butt-Head Do America]
Edited by - James on 10/30/2001 06:24:50 |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2001 : 07:05:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
First the media: who are these dunderheads spouting nonsense about the military situation in Afghanistan? "The 'weather window' is closing..." Poppycock. The army doesn't call rain and snow "Ranger Sunshine" for nothing. Inclement weather ops is a forte for our ground forces and, with some exceptions, for our aircraft. [Garrette]
quote:
It's no secret what I think of the media and the "war," but they're getting ridiculous. Three weeks into this thing, they're asking if it's taking too long. [Gorgo]
The word war is one aspect of this conflict that the military has little control of. They can spoon feed bullshit to the U.S. press core, but I can also watch the BBC morning newscast in Ohio, live from Kabul, courtesy of the Taliban. U.S. jets are screaming overhead and the thump of bombs can be heard in the background. It just ain't your daddy's war.
I have two thoughts about all the babble of winter weather.
1. The Pentagon is trying to lower expectations of a quick war.
2. The Pentagon is feeding dis-information back to the Taliban via the media that we are a bunch of pansies who will huddle over kerosene heaters between firing rifle rounds.
In my view, Ramadan and winter is a PERFECT time for a ground offensive. At least use Ramadan as a pretext to build up one mother of an attack force. My only question is whether the Pentagon (and Bush) has the balls to order it.
"Hit hard, hit fast, hit often."
[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]
And on a personal note, I'm a firm believer in using terror against the terrorists. This buffoon of a Taliban spokesman who keeps railing to the press about civilian casualties day after day. Why hasn't someone put a bullet through his brain?
(:raig |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2001 : 07:42:02 [Permalink]
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Mespo, you're probably right on the disinfo bit. I'm not an expert on 'word wars' but now that I think of it, I imagine that the principles of actual war would apply, or even the principles of gaming.
I remember teaching my nephew how to play chess (he's 14 now and a certifiable, world class genius who will someday rule the world and, with luck, remember his uncle fondly).
This was about 7 years ago when he was playing against my dad who was roundly beating him (it's not so cruel as it sounds; you have to know this kid and what he can handle emotionally and intellectually). When Jason (my nephew) asked for help I told him it's simple: when the other guy is attacking you on one side of the board, ignore it and attack him on the other side. With no further help than that, Jason won.
Anyhoo...the word wars might be the same. Ignore most the of the idiocy being spouted, but when appropriate, marshal your best speechwriters and come out with soundbites blazing.
P.S. Halsey's cool, but I'll still go with Nelson: "No captain can do wrong who lays his ship alongside that of the enemy."
My kids still love me. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2001 : 07:44:09 [Permalink]
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Or Mosby (since this is getting fun): "The winner is the one who gets there firstest with the mostest."
My kids still love me. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2001 : 08:18:02 [Permalink]
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I saw an interview with Biden on Charlie Rose last week that was prety interesting. I wonder if that's the interview in question. I was impressed because I thought some of the things he was saying were rather gutsy. Yes, he was criticizing some US policies and loudly criticized Saudi Arabia for funding bin Laden and other terrorists.
Good lord, a politician speaking frankly. Can't have that. It's amazing what's going on in America right now when someone dares to give their opinion 
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2001 : 08:43:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Or Mosby (since this is getting fun): "The winner is the one who gets there firstest with the mostest."
Perhaps we should get into the regional flavor of the conflict...
"If Mohammed cannot come to the mountain, bring the mountain to Mohammed."
American translation: If the Northern Alliance can't bring the fight to the Taliban, bring the Taliban to the Northern Alliance. (Get behind the suckers and PUSH!)
"I love the smell of napalm in the morning, it smells like . . . victory."
[Robert Duvall as Col. Kilgore in Apocalypse Now]
(:raig |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2001 : 10:27:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Or Mosby (since this is getting fun): "The winner is the one who gets there firstest with the mostest."
My kids still love me.
Mosby? I thought this (or something similar) was said by General Bedford Forest. He also said when told he was surrounded, "split in two and charge both ways". It worked.
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2001 : 10:39:48 [Permalink]
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Forrest? Hmmmm.....I was sure it was Mosby, but now you've got me doubting it. Have to check. Wouldn't want to go against either of 'em, though.
My kids still love me. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2001 : 10:45:40 [Permalink]
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Val, you're right. It was Forrest. I am now resigning my membership in the "I'm Better Than Pagans" club and joining instead the "Society for Confusing Quotations of Generals Sherman and Sheridan."
My kids still love me. |
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lpetrich
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2001 : 06:10:50 [Permalink]
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Actually, the idea of Americans as cowards and pansies might be very convincing disinformation, because it would seem to be very well supported by the last decade of US military intervention.
Osama bin Laden thinks that our leaders are much more cowardly than the Soviet Union's leaders -- with seeming good reason.
Consider our wimpout in Somalia and our unwillingness to commit ground troops to Kosovo. And our almost exclusive reliance on bombs and cruise missiles for the last decade. Those are good for destroying big, fixed targets, but not small, moble ones, like ObL and his men. Experience with air power suggests that air power alone cannot hold an area; one needs ground troops. Which has the side effect of some of our young men coming back in body bags. Which neither Clinton nor pre-Sept-11 Bush was willing to risk.
So if the Taliban and ObL continues to believe that we are a bunch of wimps, they might be having a nasty surprise coming up for him.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2001 : 11:19:39 [Permalink]
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Which neither Clinton nor pre-Sept-11 Bush was willing to risk.
Pre-Sept. 11th Bush? In what military campaigns pre-Sept. 11th was Bush overseeing in which he chose not to send in ground troops?
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2001 : 12:02:04 [Permalink]
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Don't buy the premise, Republican=Conservative. Since the sixties, the grand ol' party has become increasingly radical IMO, and since the fall of communism, just sweaty-handed greedy. To be sure, there are conservatives in the Republican party, where else are they to go? It was "Walks with god" Reagan, who showed the world first, that terrorism can work with US, by pulling out of Lebanon after we got a bloody nose. We've been paying in blood ever since. Also thought his public criticism of Carter's handling of the Iranian hostage situation, while it was on-going, deserved or not, was extrememly statesman like as well. [/sarcasm] To my mind, a "conservative" pays the bills first, and follows, "First, do no harm," but that's me...
"The object of war is not to die for your country,
but to make the other bastard, die for his."
- General George Patton -
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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