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ZaphodBeeblebrox
Skeptic Friend
USA
117 Posts |
 Posted - 10/24/2001 : 15:45:19
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Is anyone aware of the new Anti-Terrorism Bill that was passed by the House, Yesterday. Unless I am sorely mistaken, this Bill is an End-Run around the Forth Amendment, elements of the First Amendment, and comes pretty close, to Violating the Sixth Amendment. While we're at it, why don't we just bring back the Alien and Sedition Acts, it would make things a lot easier. In fact, why stop there, when we could just as easily Revoke the Citizenship, of all Arab-, or Muslim-, Americans. That way, when Arab-Owned Businesses are Vandalized, we can very rightly claim, that no Americans have been harmed.
Of course, we could protect them, maybe just by putting them in Camps, as we did to Japanese-Americans. We could, also, Issue Acceptable Arabs, Identification Badges, so that they wouldn't be unduly Threatened, by The State, as the Taliban did for its Hindus, a few Months ago. All for their own good, of course. In fact, maybe we could, also, make those Badges in the Shape of Yellow Crescents, and wouldn't that just be, "Sheik"?
Now, before I stick my Tongue so far into my Cheek, that I stick it, and the rest of my Head with it, up my Ass; I would just like to say that I find all of these outcomes Possible, if not Likely, and that I find that Fact, in a word, Appalling. I would also like to say that, while we have fought and argued Recently, over a Holy City, I stand by my Islamic Brethren in this, their Hour of Need, and urge restraint, on All Americans, to restrict this Fight to the Actual Terrorists, and the Countries that support them, and not upon any of their Fellow Semites, who just happen, to get caught in our Web. Now, about the Problem with sticking my Head up my Ass...
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away.
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 10/24/2001 15:46:56
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 10/24/2001 16:03:51
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
 Posted - 10/24/2001 : 18:57:07 [Permalink]
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I haven't read the actual bill yet but I am leery of any such legislation. I spoke in another thread about the revision of FISA which this apparently gets into.
I am reminded of the internet businesses and the claim that there were new rules for business and economics, followed by the realization that new trappings don't mean new substance.
It is the same here. Cries of "Yeah, but now it's different" and "We would never use this to do those things you're afraid of."
Horse puckey. Fear this legislation and those who support its kind.
My kids still love me. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2001 : 19:27:49 [Permalink]
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Wow, this really walks a fine line doesn't it? On one hand, it would give the government an unfettered hand to root out the terrorists. On the other hand, it could also be used to root out people the government feels has "unreliable opinions". Could it ever go that far? I dunno. If it did, and considering all that Shrub, his dad, and the AG hold dear, I and about 90% of the folks on this board would be screwed. Tracking down terrorists doesn't give me heartburn at all, but this bill has some potential for abuse.
I would hope that all Americans cherish our freedoms enough that this could not happen.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2001 : 22:22:10 [Permalink]
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Unfotunately this is the trap that the uninformed seem to always fall it.
Something happens, a law is proposed, everyone panicks and accepts it because it will be usefull in the current situation, even if the potential for abuse is great, things go back to normal (relatively), law stays on the books to be abused for things it wasn't meant to be used for.
If they want to do things like this, it should only be passed with a (short) expiration date. Let them debate it again if they still think we need it in a year or so. 4 years is too long, IMO
quote:
the Senate insisted that most of the surveillance provisions expire after four years, while the House did not. The compromise would provide a four-year sunset that would not apply to investigations already under way.
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Victory Not Vengeance
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 10/24/2001 22:24:17 |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2001 : 22:55:25 [Permalink]
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Yeah TD, this is what I was getting at. The knee-jerk reaction. Would limits work? I don't know. First, you'd have to trust that the limits would be adhered to. Right now, my trust factor is pretty much at nadir.
Let's say this is wildly successful, and the agencies involved actually managed to kill/imprison/deport/whatever all the bad guys. They'll need quite a bit of power to do this. Now that they've succeeded, do you really think they'll give up that power and go stand in an unemployment line? I doubt it. I think they'd find a new enemy to root out. Paranoid? Perhaps. Read history books and watch the political machine? Yes.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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ZaphodBeeblebrox
Skeptic Friend
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2001 : 00:26:29 [Permalink]
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The Really Scary Part, is that even the, alleged, reason behind Kristallnacht, or the Night of the Broken Glass, was, what we would call today, a Terrorist Act.
As this Article's, accompanying, Text File States, "It was officially presented as a spontaneous outburst provoked by the assassination of the third secretary of the German embassy in Paris, Ernst vom Rath, by a seventeen - year - old Polish Jew, Herschel Grynszpan," with a Motive, that Must be Read in Context, to be Believed.
Furthermore, just in case you're, At All, taken in by the Current Display of Relgious Nationalism, in the US, just remember that Every German Soldier, from before the Great War, up until at least, the End of the Second World War, had a Belt Buckle Stamped with the words, "Gott Mit Uns," or God Is With Us. Just a little Food for Thought!
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away.
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 10/25/2001 00:26:55
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 10/25/2001 00:31:19 |
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ZaphodBeeblebrox
Skeptic Friend
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 09:41:08 [Permalink]
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Well, the News, is finally here. Ol' '54 VW, just signed the, Now, Anti-Terrorism Law, into being, these are some of his words:
quote:
The changes, effective today, will help counter a threat like no other our nation has ever faced. We've seen the enemy, and the murder of thousands of innocent, unsuspecting people. They recognize no barrier of morality. They have no conscience. The terrorists cannot be reasoned with. Witness the recent anthrax attacks through our Postal Service.
Yes, "We've seen the enemy," and he is US! BTW, Garrette, I've found a Copy of the House Resolution, here it is: USA Patriot Act. I found the Problem with the Link, Stupid me to Leave Out, the Address.
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away.
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 10/26/2001 09:56:35
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 10/26/2001 12:24:18 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 09:50:49 [Permalink]
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Zaphod, try that link again, it didn't format correctly.
This signature does not exist. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 09:51:57 [Permalink]
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I can't help but feel as if the WTC attack was like injecting us with a slow poison that is finally making us very sick. As I said before, it's amazing that mere months ago if asked if this sort of thing would happen in the US few would have thought it possible. Now our elected officials, sent to Washington to represent us, have decided that we are indeed not the land of the free and the brave. We are the land of the frightened and day by day less free.
I wonder if bin Laden is over laughing at us and calling his pals to tell them how awesome it is how he completely destroyed the USA and our way of life.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ZaphodBeeblebrox
Skeptic Friend
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 14:12:16 [Permalink]
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I thought that it was possible, @tomic, ever since August of 1999, after the Kansas State Board of Education, voted to drop any mention of Evolution from its Statewide Science Curricula Standards.
In fact, soon after that, I started drawing up the Outline for a Book that I intend to write, about the Possible Reemergence, at a Later Time, of Agressive Facsist Countries, that Succeed in Taking Over, Most of the World.
It takes place, over Several Time Periods, in the Past, Present, and Near-, and Far-Term Futures, with the First section taking place in 2025, where a series of Flashbacks, tell the Story of a Country Gone Mad. Would you like to hear more
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away. |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 19:33:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
I thought that it was possible, @tomic, ever since August of 1999, after the Kansas State Board of Education, voted to drop any mention of Evolution from its Statewide Science Curricula Standards.
In fact, soon after that, I started drawing up the Outline for a Book that I intend to write, about the Possible Reemergence, at a Later Time, of Agressive Facsist Countries, that Succeed in Taking Over, Most of the World.
It takes place, over Several Time Periods, in the Past, Present, and Near-, and Far-Term Futures, with the First section taking place in 2025, where a series of Flashbacks, tell the Story of a Country Gone Mad. Would you like to hear more
Please, post more about your story. In fact, if possible post it or a link to where it is. Sounds very interesting. One condition: Please check it for proper punctuation. Your posts are bad enough.  
"Hey Butt-Head check this book out! There's a talking snake, a naked chick, then some guy puts a leaf on his SCHLONG!!" [Beavis and Butt-Head Do America] |
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 20:52:28 [Permalink]
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I've always considered myself a patriot. Maybe not in the flag waving, "my country wright or wrong" sense, but in the sense of someone who believes in the basic ideas on which this nation was founded: democracy, inalienable human rights, and freedom. So why do the words "Patriot Act" give me the willies?
quote:
I would hope that all Americans cherish our freedoms enough that this could not happen.
I would say it's a safe bet that most Americans cherish their freedoms. The problem is that too many still don't seem to understand that cherishing your own freedom requires that you cherish the freedom of others.
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ZaphodBeeblebrox
Skeptic Friend
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2001 : 04:04:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Please, post more about your story. In fact, if possible post it or a link to where it is. Sounds very interesting. One condition: Please check it for proper punctuation. Your posts are bad enough.
Alright, alright, I admit it, I'm Very Pedantic, and I have a weird thing about Commas. Can't, have, too, many, Commas,,,,,,
As for posting it, however, it is very much a Work in Progress, although I am almost finished with an Outline, and the First Two Chapters, which I will then send to a likely Publisher. Unfortunately, most good Science Fiction Publishers, require Agented Submissions, so I'll probably have to find an Agent first. You don't know of a good one, do you? Anyway, enough blubbering, stay tuned for the Next Post!
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away. |
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ZaphodBeeblebrox
Skeptic Friend
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2001 : 05:00:14 [Permalink]
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I am in the process of rewriting my Back Story, to take into account Recent Events, but this is how it stood on September 10, 2001, Enjoy:
A high Ranking American Official is killed by a pair of assassins, the one who pulls the Trigger is a Jewish Female, and her Accomplice is a Homosexual Male. He is caught by the Crowd soon afterwards, and unspeakable things are done to his unspeakables. Meanwhile, the Real Killer escapes from the scene, and she quickly boards an International Flight, to Israel, where she immediately claims Citizenship. Now, this puts the Israeli Government, in a bit of a quandary, because under Israeli Law, they can no more Extradite her, than they can someone whose Family has lived there, non-stop, since the 1920s. So, against American objections, it is decided to try her in Tel Aviv, instead. As Israel has no Death Penalty, that decision inflames an already precarious, situation. Very soon, attacks begin, first targeting Jews, and eventually moving on to Homosexuals. This is especially bad, in the Southern States, where a few Real Riots occur. It is in the middle of one of these, that one of the Main Characters finds himself.
His name is Sidney Begin, and he has a Wife and two small children. He has been excessively vocal in the Community, and has of late, defended Israel's Right to pronounce Judgment upon its Citizens, as well as the Right to confer that Citizenship, upon any Jew who seeks it. For this reason, he is treated rather harshly by the Rioters, and in what they deem to be an appropriate fate, he is Crucified, along with several others. In addition, to add emotional pain, to intense agony, his wife and children are hanged to death, from his crossbeam. It is with this Flashback, coming back to haunt him, that the story opens, 16 1/2 years later.
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away.
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 10/27/2001 05:01:48
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 10/27/2001 05:52:07 |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2001 : 02:19:30 [Permalink]
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One of the features of the Twentieth Century was that our glorious Organs of State Security had the habit of going on ideological rampages against opinions and people they found inconvenient to their masters' interests, e.g., the Palmer Raids, HUAC's witch hunts, Hoover's vendetta against the civil rights movement, COINTELPRO...
This law is tailor-made to promote more of the same sort of repression, being less of a specific response to terrorist violence than a retreading of a social control wish list that the authoritarian elements of the permanent government had previously failed to get enacted.
Ain't no question of if it will be abused, not if you believe that previous events provide clues to the way that people will behave in the future. The only question is how it will be abused.
Recently the media have been floating trial balloons about the legitimization of torture. That might just be a clue about the current mindset of the secret police types...
Boris Karloff died for your sins. |
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