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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 11/18/2005 : 20:01:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Hey b, we covered gravity slings to the point of dispair in other threads, remember? Or are we mistaken about your age and you are suffering from senile dementia?
I don't want to imply anything here, filthy, but bbbbbb is disputing the very need for a gravity sling due to - he claims - the "fact" that the spacecraft's tiny mass means we can neglect the effects of gravity on it as it leaves Earth. Just nevermind that it slows down dramatically after leaving the planet. Oh, and never mind that after the first ten hours, it's already falling towards the Sun at 200 m/s instead of traversing from Earth orbit to Saturn orbit in a nice straight line.
Just ignore interplanetary orbital mechanics, says bigbrain, and there's no need for gravity-assist planetary fly-bys. Simple!
Or simple-minded? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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lord_hevonen
New Member
30 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2005 : 00:24:33 [Permalink]
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This Chinese parachute thing is a very good example of the thinking of conspiracy believers. In photos you see three different-looking parachutes. You have always thought that only one set of chutes was used. Now you could easily find out more about capsule re-entry, you could Google like many of us do.
Instead you make this new thing fit your pre-existing, exciting theory about faked space missions. Now ask yourself, is this an example of "open mind"?
Most (if not all) arguments against space flights are based on badly researched misconceptions about spaceflight, geology, physics and photography. All these would be clarified if these people bothered to study, instead of just reading claims from people in similar intellectual foxholes. |
| Edited by - lord_hevonen on 11/19/2005 00:27:09 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2005 : 01:55:53 [Permalink]
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Upon closer examination, there are three different parachutes. I stand corrected.
But therefore I must ask: how exactly, does multiple parachutes demonstrate that the Chinese space effort was a fraud? Further, I'd like to ask why, exactly, might the Chinese, or anyone else for that matter, go through all of the fuss and bother, not to mention the expense, to perpetrate such a fraud.
April 1st is a long way off, so we can't use that one.... 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Bunga
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
74 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2005 : 02:10:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by breakballs
Have the Chinese gone to space?
Yes, as Saddam had a lot of nuclear bombs.
Yes, as a big plane can crash against Pentagon and vanish.
Yes, as two powerful skyscrapers of 500,000 tons can be destroyed by two ridiculous plane of 200 tons.
Yes, as a rocket can go backwards using its engine as a brake.
Last I checked all of those except the "Saddam has nukes" is/was true. And the "vanish" bit, the plane which crashed into the Pentagon didn't exactly "vanish" so much as "disintegrate", "explode" and "get taken away by rescue workers and the clean-up crew". |
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2005 : 12:48:21 [Permalink]
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"But bbbbbb is disputing the very need for a gravity sling due to - he claims - the "fact" that the spacecraft's tiny mass means we can neglect the effects of gravity on it as it leaves Earth. Just nevermind that it slows down dramatically after leaving the planet. Oh, and never mind that after the first ten hours, it's already falling towards the Sun at 200 m/s instead of traversing from Earth orbit to Saturn orbit in a nice straight line".
Turning two times round the sun before going to Saturn is best in your opinion.
Why?
Explain clearly with simple words.
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"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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| Edited by - bigbrain on 11/19/2005 13:06:27 |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2005 : 16:42:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain
"But bbbbbb is disputing the very need for a gravity sling due to - he claims - the "fact" that the spacecraft's tiny mass means we can neglect the effects of gravity on it as it leaves Earth. Just nevermind that it slows down dramatically after leaving the planet. Oh, and never mind that after the first ten hours, it's already falling towards the Sun at 200 m/s instead of traversing from Earth orbit to Saturn orbit in a nice straight line".
Turning two times round the sun before going to Saturn is best in your opinion.
Why?
Explain clearly with simple words.
Bigbrain, here's a brief write up on the mission to Mercury called The Messenger. Note the short description of planetary gravity assist on its long trip to Mercury. The rocket left Earth in August of '04, to arrive for Mercury orbit insertion in March of 2011.
It saves fuel. Read the "Mission Design"....
http://messenger.jhuapl.edu/the_mission/mission_design.html
Imagine the math, the brain power of satellite trajectorists plotting every move. This isn't a trip to the corner grocery store. This tiny spacecraft has to be in the right place at the right time all the time or it will never get to Mercury...
http://messenger.jhuapl.edu/the_mission/trajectory.html
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2005 : 16:42:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Randy
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Filthy, the two first 'chutes definitly looks like two different ones. Just look at their deployed shape. I submit that they are used for different speeds, at different stages of the reentry.
The first 'deformed' parachute photo could have a deployment ring that dampens the chute's opening so the shock of high speed does not tear it apart. I first noticed about this on programs on parachutes used on the Mars Rover missions from near two years ago.
Compare the chute-lines' relative length compared to the capsule. And no matter how I try, I can't figure out how diferent lighting and exposure whould change the colour-stripes of the pictures. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2005 : 17:58:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain
Turning two times round the sun before going to Saturn is best in your opinion.
Why?
Explain clearly with simple words.
I already did, in the first thread you started here. You blew it off by implying that the gravitational "drag" of the Sun was small enough to be ignored.
You're claiming to be expert enough in orbital mechanics to know that NASA is fooling everyone, so you tell me why we can ignore a 19.08 m/s/hour acceleration. You tell me how fast the craft has to launch from Earth to overcome the Sun's pull and make it to Saturn.
Explain clearly with simple words. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 02:54:26 [Permalink]
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The Japanese like NASA buffoons....
quote:
Japan Space Probe Nears Asteroid
Email this Story
Nov 20, 1:02 AM (ET)
By MARI YAMAGUCHI
TOKYO (AP) - A Japanese research probe moved within yards of an asteroid on Sunday, but officials then lost contact and it was unclear whether it had successfully landed to collect surface samples, Japan's space agency said.
The Hayabusa probe, which botched a rehearsal earlier this month, is on a mission to collect material from the asteroid during a brief landing and then bring it back to Earth.
Hayabusa moved to 130 feet above the potato-shaped asteroid Itokawa and then dropped a small ball-shaped telemeter as a touchdown target before descending further to 56 feet, JAXA officials said. At that point, they lost contact for about three hours before restoring two-way contact, JAXA official Kiyotaka Yashiro said.
The probe switched to auto-control, storing data about itself and later transmitting it to ground control, which officials were still analyzing, Yashiro said.
The probe has been troubled by a series of glitches.
A rehearsal was aborted earlier this month when it had trouble finding a landing spot, and a small robotic lander deployed from the probe was lost. Hayabusa also had an earlier problem with one of its three gyroscopes, which was later repaired.
So, b-wildered...... are the Japanese lying about their probe? If you think so, what then is your reasoning?
Also, if they are lying about it, why then would they be speaking of problems rather than saying how smoothly the mission is going? In my experience, liars usually don't tout their failures; rather they boast of success, warrented or not, usually not. The current denizen of our White House as a prime example.
But enough of lies and the cretins who tell them -- when/if this probe returns with asteroid samples, what might be your claim then? That the samples are scrapings from the sidewalk in front of a Tokyo pissoir (I don't know if the Japanese have that most civilized of accomodations -- the public pissoir -- but you get my drift)? Or will you at long last acknowledege scientific achevement?
"ACKNOWLEDGE, v.t. To confess. Acknowledgement of one another's faults is the highest duty imposed by our love of truth."
--Ambrose Bierce
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 06:28:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Randy
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Filthy, the two first 'chutes definitly looks like two different ones. Just look at their deployed shape. I submit that they are used for different speeds, at different stages of the reentry.
The first 'deformed' parachute photo could have a deployment ring that dampens the chute's opening so the shock of high speed does not tear it apart. I first noticed about this on programs on parachutes used on the Mars Rover missions from near two years ago.
Compare the chute-lines' relative length compared to the capsule. And no matter how I try, I can't figure out how diferent lighting and exposure whould change the colour-stripes of the pictures.
Mab, evidently the photos are a mix of landing tests and of the mission. So far as I can tell, (typically) the Chinese haven't a NASA-like webphoto catalog of the mission(s) to scroll thru.
See parachute photo and caption below...
http://www.sinodefence.com/space/manned/shenzhou.asp
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>snip:
quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain
[b]Hey, gullible guy, we live in TV time.
If the Chinese had gone to space really, they would have filmed the most exciting moments of their enterprise.
Re-entry is the most exciting moment.
If you had gone to the moon really, we would have seen in TV your departure from the moon, your Lunar Module going off the ground.
HEROS WERE COMING BACK.
We didn't see anything, only faked images like those of the Chinese.
Bigbrain, check the third paragraph...
http://www.sinodefence.com/news/2005/news05-10-17.asp |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 07:29:20 [Permalink]
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dave W.
You're claiming to be expert enough in orbital mechanics to know that NASA is fooling everyone, so you tell me why we can ignore a 19.08 m/s/hour acceleration. You tell me how fast the craft has to launch from Earth to overcome the Sun's pull and make it to Saturn.
Explain clearly with simple words.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Look carefully at "Earth Flyby 18 August 1999".
From this moment I have decided not to pass from an argument to another. I'd like to deepen this argument.
Well, dear Dave W., why have NASA buffoons made the probe to pass near the Earth before going to Saturn?
The Earth runs slower than Venus.
Why have NASA buffoons accelerated two times the probe with Venus and then they have slowered down it making it to pass near the Earth?
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"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 08:42:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain
From this moment I have decided not to pass from an argument to another.
Yeah, because you can't answer my questions.quote:
I'd like to deepen this argument.
Except you can seem to be able to do that, either.quote:
Well, dear Dave W., why have NASA buffoons made the probe to pass near the Earth before going to Saturn?
The Earth runs slower than Venus.
Why have NASA buffoons accelerated two times the probe with Venus and then they have slowered down it making it to pass near the Earth?
According to you (months ago), Venus couldn't possibly accelerate the probe. Now, you say that Venus can accelerate the probe. Why is it that you've changed your mind, exactly? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 09:01:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
According to you (months ago), Venus couldn't possibly accelerate the probe. Now, you say that Venus can accelerate the probe. Why is it that you've changed your mind, exactly?
NASA buffoons have said that Venus can accelerate their probe.
Suppose it's true.
Why have NASA buffoons accelerated two times the probe with Venus and then they have slowered down it making it to pass near the Earth?
Cool question, isn't it?
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"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 12:00:39 [Permalink]
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Ah geeze Louise, let's not do this again.... It was a dull scene the first, several times we went through it, and it hasn't gotten any livelier with age and experience.
B, my good addlepate, surely there must be some other aspect of the various space programs that pique an interest in you.
How 'bout that Sally Ride, eh? The first stone fox in space.
Or the expertise of the Russians when they intentionally crashed Mir -- yeah! That's a good one. How'd they do that, almost literally dropping it on a dime?
Assuming, of course, that Mir was something other than a Moscow film set.... 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 12:23:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
According to you (months ago), Venus couldn't possibly accelerate the probe. Now, you say that Venus can accelerate the probe. Why is it that you've changed your mind, exactly?
NASA buffoons have said that Venus can accelerate their probe.
Suppose it's true.
Why have NASA buffoons accelerated two times the probe with Venus and then they have slowered down it making it to pass near the Earth?
Cool question, isn't it?
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"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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