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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 12/27/2001 : 00:13:38 [Permalink]
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My thoughts, well ok. First, in this instance I think we are referring to the concept of 'romantic love' right? Now, that was actually not a recognized valid reason to enter into a relationship until fairly recently. So I'll equate sex in this vein with lust. You can lust after a person without all the emotional baggage attached with the concept of 'romantic love'.
Now, I'll go with marriage as a social construct and definitely the sanctity of marriage as a religious construct. Knowing who fathered a child is definitely better for society than the resultant inbreeding from not knowing.
I hadn't considered this. Sounds reasonable.
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Controlling the populace through this means would have both pros and cons but I think the pros outweigh the cons. Marriages, for the longest time, were prearranged or occurred simply because it was the preferred (?) state for the masses at large and you picked from those among your class, station, whatever, or you attempted to improve your lot by marrying into a higher class, station, whatever. There really was no concept of 'romantic love' involved in forming marriages.
I don't see 'romatic love' and everything it entails as having arisen from a religious perspective based on this background. So into 'romantic love' we throw all the emotions that we think of when we think of love plus lust (which few want to admit) into the mix. I actually think the church would have been against the concept of 'romantic love' because of the base nature of the concept - lust. The church could control your marriage but they couldn't control the aspect of lust. Now remember that the church (Judeo-xian) believes that women should subject themselves to their husbands and find nothing but pain in the bearing of children (Genesis) - her ultimate reason for existence. Lust removes the stigma of the pain and allows a woman to enjoy sexual encounters.
I don't think 'romantic love' was something invented by the church (I presume we're talking some form of Christianity here) so much as it was borrowed. The Greeks' 'system of loves,' if you will, was around long before that. I think it was usurped by the church at some point, as another method of spiritual control. I think it relates to sexual control in that it became convenient for the church officials to demand people abstain from sex without love, and then declare that love was something God-given and singularly special, etc etc.
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So maybe it's not so much an artifact of our minds, but rather our minds pulling together all the emotional crap that entails love and labeling it - a concept rather than an emotion.
Absolutely, and what's more, I think we have been taught to do this from a relatively early age.
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I will differ on the no emotional state needing to exist before sex. I think there is. There has to be desire/lust whatever you want to call it.
I think this is correct. Lust is probably a function of some structure in the limbic system and is certainly the result of stimuli.
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I would question whether a child is ready for dealing with the emotional package associated with love. Having nothing to back this up - most teens who are looking to have sex with their boyfriends are thinking 'I'm in love with this person and this is the ultimate way for me to show it.'
I don't think we're far off here. I agree that this is a true picture of reality. My question is, is it a necessary part of reality? Are we trying to help teens deal with existing sex-drive related emotions or are we helping them deal with emotions that they have been taught they should have at certain times?
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob
Edited by - PhDreamer on 12/27/2001 00:15:12 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2001 : 01:39:02 [Permalink]
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I would question whether a child is ready for dealing with the emotional package associated with love. Having nothing to back this up - most teens who are looking to have sex with their boyfriends are thinking 'I'm in love with this person and this is the ultimate way for me to show it.'
I don't think we're far off here. I agree that this is a true picture of reality. My question is, is it a necessary part of reality? Are we trying to help teens deal with existing sex-drive related emotions or are we helping them deal with emotions that they have been taught they should have at certain times?
That sounds like something a psychitrist might say. They don't know what they are talking about IMO. I also think they are responsible for more minds being messed up than if kids would be left alone.
I don't like people who analize everything. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar!
Who gets taught that they should feel certain emotions at certain times? If that's the case then they aren't being EMOTIONAL, would they? They'd be acting!
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art.
Edited by - snake on 12/27/2001 01:43:59 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2001 : 14:49:08 [Permalink]
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Controlling the populace through this means would have both pros and cons but I think the pros outweigh the cons. Marriages, for the longest time, were prearranged or occurred simply because it was the preferred (?) state for the masses at large and you picked from those among your class, station, whatever, or you attempted to improve your lot by marrying into a higher class, station, whatever. There really was no concept of 'romantic love' involved in forming marriages.
I don't see 'romatic love' and everything it entails as having arisen from a religious perspective based on this background. So into 'romantic love' we throw all the emotions that we think of when we think of love plus lust (which few want to admit) into the mix. I actually think the church would have been against the concept of 'romantic love' because of the base nature of the concept - lust. The church could control your marriage but they couldn't control the aspect of lust. Now remember that the church (Judeo-xian) believes that women should subject themselves to their husbands and find nothing but pain in the bearing of children (Genesis) - her ultimate reason for existence. Lust removes the stigma of the pain and allows a woman to enjoy sexual encounters.
I don't think 'romantic love' was something invented by the church (I presume we're talking some form of Christianity here) so much as it was borrowed. The Greeks' 'system of loves,' if you will, was around long before that. I think it was usurped by the church at some point, as another method of spiritual control. I think it relates to sexual control in that it became convenient for the church officials to demand people abstain from sex without love, and then declare that love was something God-given and singularly special, etc etc.
Hmm, I'm not familiar with the Greek 'system of loves'. So, I'm not sure how to address this issue. I'll have to try to do some research.
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So maybe it's not so much an artifact of our minds, but rather our minds pulling together all the emotional crap that entails love and labeling it - a concept rather than an emotion.
Absolutely, and what's more, I think we have been taught to do this from a relatively early age.
Look at the stories we fill our childrens minds with, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, etc. All show romantic love above prearrangement - perhaps with the exception of Sleeping Beauty in a minor way.
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I would question whether a child is ready for dealing with the emotional package associated with love. Having nothing to back this up - most teens who are looking to have sex with their boyfriends are thinking 'I'm in love with this person and this is the ultimate way for me to show it.'
I don't think we're far off here. I agree that this is a true picture of reality. My question is, is it a necessary part of reality? Are we trying to help teens deal with existing sex-drive related emotions or are we helping them deal with emotions that they have been taught they should have at certain times?
No, the xian majority societies have been attempting to drive sexuality out of people for centuries. Fortunately, the human animal is a sexual animal and they're fighting the millenia of evolution involved in our highly developed sexual organ - the brain. Some societies have realized that sexual pleasure can't be stopped unless they mutilate the sexual organs. The xian church attempts to mutilate the mind and others mutilate the clitoris.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2001 : 18:37:53 [Permalink]
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Look at the stories we fill our childrens minds with, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, etc. All show romantic love above prearrangement - perhaps with the exception of Sleeping Beauty in a minor way.
I thihk that's ridiculus. Those stories are supposed to show love???
I think different people might see various scenarios in them, depends who you talk to.
I myself was fascinated by the knight on the horse and wished I could be like him, riding through forrest, encountering adventures. I never thought of rescuing the maiden (and winning her love/ or or a woman getting a prince as a reward) as the final result of the plot.
If that's what many people think, that romantic love is the main story, then perhaps they should reexamine the meaning in more depth.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2001 : 00:34:21 [Permalink]
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I thihk that's ridiculus. Those stories are supposed to show love???
I think different people might see various scenarios in them, depends who you talk to.
I myself was fascinated by the knight on the horse and wished I could be like him, riding through forrest, encountering adventures. I never thought of rescuing the maiden (and winning her love/ or or a woman getting a prince as a reward) as the final result of the plot.
If that's what many people think, that romantic love is the main story, then perhaps they should reexamine the meaning in more depth.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art.
Read the original Grimm Brothers tales. Yes, they are primarily love stories. Stories of how love triumphs in the end. Or love is enough to overcome.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2001 : 01:20:55 [Permalink]
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Read the original Grimm Brothers tales. Yes, they are primarily love stories. Stories of how love triumphs in the end. Or love is enough to overcome.
Sorry Trish, I think you are trying to help but I still say it's a matter of interupetation, by the reader, of the times they were written in, and other factors (I can't think of right now 'cause I have a cold and need to sleep). Main point is, as I think with many stories people read, we each individualy see something in a book, a painting, sculpture, movie, etc., that we realate to because of our own expierences. The brothers are not here to say what they meant so unless you know that they spicificaly only intended them to be love stories, I reserve the right to imagin with my own mind as to the true meaning.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2001 : 07:22:55 [Permalink]
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I thihk that's ridiculus. Those stories are supposed to show love???
I think different people might see various scenarios in them, depends who you talk to.
I myself was fascinated by the knight on the horse and wished I could be like him, riding through forrest, encountering adventures. I never thought of rescuing the maiden (and winning her love/ or or a woman getting a prince as a reward) as the final result of the plot.
If that's what many people think, that romantic love is the main story, then perhaps they should reexamine the meaning in more depth.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art.
Read the original Grimm Brothers tales. Yes, they are primarily love stories. Stories of how love triumphs in the end. Or love is enough to overcome.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain
I thought they were stories to teach morals and good manners. Cinderella teaches people to be nice to underlings because they might be in a position of power someday and vanity comes with a very high price. (Cinderella's step sisters cut off toes and heels to fit into the slipper. Cinderella's step mother, who has been absoulutely horrible to her through out her life goes to her step daughter's wedding. For her a pair of iron shoes has been resting on the fire for most of the day. They nail the shoes to her feet and "she danced until she died".) Grimm's fairy tales were very grim indeed. They were intended to scare the crap out of children so they would behave like decent people. If you did that nowadays, you'd be charged with child abuse.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2001 : 08:46:30 [Permalink]
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Hmm, I don't remember the iron shoe thing - guess I have to go back and reread those things - it's been a while.
Yes, they were rather gruesome stories for the most part.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2001 : 18:45:59 [Permalink]
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I thought they were stories to teach morals and good manners. Cinderella teaches people to be nice to underlings because they might be in a position of power someday and vanity comes with a very high price
Thank you Val, I'm so glad there are people on this list who are more articulate than I.
You see what I mean about each person looking at a story in a different way.
I wonder how many people think 'Gulivers Travels' is just an adventure story about a guy meetig strange people, Yahoo!!! , rather then a political statement or 'Alice in Wonderland' just a little girls fantasy dream rather than a philosophical debate?
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2001 : 18:54:27 [Permalink]
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Hmm, I don't remember the iron shoe thing - guess I have to go back and reread those things - it's been a while.
A side note, and I don't know this is just a thought but maybe it's a different translation and someone took poetic licence. Or what you read was edited for a certain age group.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2001 : 23:38:53 [Permalink]
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Harvard Classics Literature Collection. No, not edited for children. Would be uncertain regarding the translation. But if it's in the story it should be in this copy.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2001 : 13:25:07 [Permalink]
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Harvard Classics Literature Collection. No, not edited for children. Would be uncertain regarding the translation. But if it's in the story it should be in this copy.
Ok, well, let us know if it mentions anything about nails in the feet, etc.
On second thought, yuk! No details please.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2001 : 21:47:18 [Permalink]
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I think it relates to sexual control in that it became convenient for the church officials to demand people abstain from sex without love, and then declare that love was something God-given and singularly special, etc etc.
This has been bothering me for a while. I think the idea of love being something god-given would have developed after the concept of romantic love. Prior to this, it was duty, a wife's duty to provide heirs, good little soldiers for the church and the state - etc. I think the concept of romatic love came about from things like 'Romeo and Juliet'. I'll have to check - but I think it was during the time frame.
The church would have had to do something about the new concept - so why not make it a god-given emotion. That would be the best way they could control this new concept. Let me look into this some more. I'm pulling this from vague rememberances of lectures within the last ten years or so. Possibly even from HS. Yikes!
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2001 : 23:26:32 [Permalink]
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I think it relates to sexual control in that it became convenient for the church officials to demand people abstain from sex without love, and then declare that love was something God-given and singularly special, etc etc.
This has been bothering me for a while. I think the idea of love being something god-given would have developed after the concept of romantic love. Prior to this, it was duty, a wife's duty to provide heirs, good little soldiers for the church and the state - etc. I think the concept of romatic love came about from things like 'Romeo and Juliet'. I'll have to check - but I think it was during the time frame.
This site has a decent summary of the "Greek system of loves" that I mentioned earlier:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa020601a.htm
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The church would have had to do something about the new concept - so why not make it a god-given emotion. That would be the best way they could control this new concept. Let me look into this some more. I'm pulling this from vague rememberances of lectures within the last ten years or so. Possibly even from HS. Yikes!
This is my thinking as well, but in much easier-to-understand verbiage. 
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2001 : 00:59:11 [Permalink]
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This site has a decent summary of the "Greek system of loves" that I mentioned earlier:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa020601a.htm
I think we could find this type of practice no matter what society you looked at prior to the existence of the church. But the church did a lot in the early centuries to abolish the practice of magicks. Under which this would fall. So initially, yes thes may have had some influence in the early roman empire, but I think that influence would have been crushed by the Holy Roman Catholic Church with it's concept of sex only for procreation.
It would seem the church made a brutal attempt to crush anything as honest as lust. Not just that, they would have to remove the emotional attachment and make it about duty instead of the sex. It was your duty to get married, to have sex for the express purpose of procreation and any other reason was expressly forbidden.
Perhaps, these concepts were lost somewhere along the way and the church, when they re-surfaced, decided to usurp the concept of love as a god-given thing.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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