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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
 Posted - 12/02/2005 : 11:07:55
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Is now my 7 year old has decided that Santa probably does not exist. I know some of you are against the whole Santa thing to begin with, but I agree with Filthy in letting them have their "fantasies" while they can. It's a bit of fun, and can actually serve as an eventual example of "don't believe everything you hear" (yes even from your parents), and "don't believe, just because it sounds nice, or comforting...etc...
Anyway, I was not expecting it this early. He still won't come right out and say Santa is not real. But he says things like "I think it's the mom's & dad's that buy presents and give them to their kids. When asked why he thinks that, he will shrug and say "thats just what I think happens". This actually gets a little smile out of me. He is obviously putting 2 & 2 together to form a more reasonable hypothesis.
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I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
Edited by - astropin on 12/02/2005 11:08:50
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2005 : 11:19:05 [Permalink]
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Seven is a good age, id say its average where nine is pushing embarassment at school.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2005 : 12:06:07 [Permalink]
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| Quick search on the net (multiple sites) shows anywhere from 6-10 with the average age being 9. However, it appears to be more of a "happens in stages" kind of thing. Most 6 and under are true believers, while 7-9 often remain "uncommitted" and 10 and older do not believe....again, on average. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2005 : 14:23:50 [Permalink]
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I think kids are afraid to say Santa doesn't exist because it might mean they get no more presents.
My son started to question why he got tons of stuff on Easter and Christmas compared to other kids (my bad, I know but...). He didn't come out and say there was no Santa until at least 7 and maybe even 8, I can't remember. But I do remember being surprised at how late it was. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2005 : 22:08:18 [Permalink]
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| My kid was pretty early with the no Santa thing then, between her 5th and 6th birthday. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2005 : 04:47:40 [Permalink]
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| I don't think I ever believed Santa, but I have fuzzy memories regarding it back when I was being taught how to read and write. I remember my mom saying stuff about him with a sly smile, so that might be why. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2005 : 08:14:41 [Permalink]
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To offer up another point of view, I'm one of those anti-Santa people. I don't have any problem with other people telling their kids that Santa exists, and I'll probably tell my kids not to spill the beans to their friends at school. My main issues with it are these:
1.) I never want to lie to my kids. It's one thing if they discover that I'm wrong about something, which is a healthy lesson to learn at some point growing up. But it's another if I explicitely tell my kids something that I know to be not true. It erodes trust and teaches kids that it's OK to lie for fun and/or if everybody does it.
2.) There are plenty of ways to teach kids critical thinking. One is by challenging social norms (like the norm that one should tell kids Santa exists), thereby teaching them by example.
3.) The whole idea of Santa revolves around the idea that you get stuff if you deserve it, and not if you don't deserve it. I plan to raise my kids in a diverse environment. At no point do I want my kid thinking even for a moment that they got better or worse toys than the next kid because they are better or worse than that kid.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2005 : 08:19:06 [Permalink]
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| Oh... here's something I didn't even think about: do Jewish people tell their kids there's a Santa, and if so, how does that work? My one friend that was raised Jewish mentioned to me that he was never told Santa exists, and I assumed that had to do with the fact that they get presents on different days than Christians. Since we celebrate Solstice in my family, my kids will get presents earlier than other kids, so if I teach them the Santa myth, I'd have to come up with a whole explanation of how Santa comes early for all the Humanist kids, and that's just getting way too complicated to deal with. ;-) |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 12/04/2005 08:19:50 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2005 : 13:14:48 [Permalink]
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Marfknox, lighten up. 
Kids love the fantasy world they get to enjoy when very young. You might look into child development stages for some information about the stages of concrete to abstract thinking. Kids are not miniature adults. Do you know of a single person, young or old who viewed telling kids there was a Santa, a Bunny or the Tooth fairy later made the kid lose trust in a parent?
There are other consequences, not that everyone has to tell their kids the same fantasies but you may be making the child confused when everyone else their age believes in Santa and you tell them he's a fake. Maybe the kid will come to distrust other things besides yourself.
I always felt I needed to be sure my son understood there was giving to be done as well as getting. (Of course now that he's 16 there is much doubt any of that sank in.)
But what is wrong with allowing kids the wonderful colorful fantasies they engage in at a young age? Didn't you ever believe your stuffed animals were real? What do you say after reading Cinderella about her Fairy Godmother? For that matter how do you answer any questions about the fantasies kids have at that age? No, Virgina, there is no Santa Claus?
Fantasy play is an integral part of child development. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2005 : 21:50:07 [Permalink]
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Young children live in a magical world. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Their brains are just not developed to the point where they can reason on the same level as adults. They don't gain that ability until their later teen years.
This is basic stuff from any entry level developemental psychology class.
I have to go with beskeptigal on this, telling your kids Santa is bringing them presents isn't going to make them distrust you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2005 : 23:46:53 [Permalink]
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| The Santa-thing seems a harmless-enough fantasy, as I'm led to believe is natural and healthy at those young ages. I've never heard of a kid "holding it against" a parent later in life or making it more likely they'd run-off with a Maharishi-type or buy into all kinds of New Age nonsense in their teens. I suspect other things of relevance on a daily basis would more-strongly influence trust and such, but parenting issues are complex... I think if one makes an honest effort and cares, the odds are in their favor. Yet I've known people I felt were as close to ideal parents as one could imagine, and the kids had big troubles anyway (seemingly defying the odds, to their parents endless misery.) Maybe all people can do is try their best. |
Ron White |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2005 : 02:50:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
T....I've known people I felt were as close to ideal parents as one could imagine, and the kids had big troubles anyway (seemingly defying the odds, to their parents endless misery.) Maybe all people can do is try their best.
That's because parents are not the only influences on a kids life.
There is a big influence from parents, and parenting skills really should be a mandatory high school subject. Instead and unfortunately, there is some absurd taboo as if one would then be interfering in how parents choose to parent, that's silly because parenting is rarely that well thought out; or, schools have never taught parenting so no one seems to think it is worth including. It's too bad because some people could sure use lessons.
But other influences are there. My two brothers and I could not be more different from each other if one had tried, yet we had the same parents. Some of it is birth order and gender. Parents treat boys and girls differently, they treat the youngest and oldest differently, and, parents get better at parenting usually as they get experience. Too bad for the first kid.
And the kid's personality matters. I tried everything, explored everything, went everywhere, and resisted any parental control from the age of 11 or so. My son is the opposite. He's quite dependent for a 16 year old, he doesn't care if he drives, he's home most nights, and he doesn't have a girlfriend yet. While one might think it is from my influence, there's no way. I have encouraged him to explore and taken him to all sorts of places most parents wouldn't have, like to see the Leonids meteor storm from the Arizona high desert and the mysterious moving rocks in the middle of Death Valley. Actually, his personality is very much like his Dad's who has hardly ever been around. There's just no question in my mind that my son has his father's personality genes and not mine.
And the worse influence at times, because it is the luck of the draw to a certain extent, is who happens to be the friends of one's kids. Kids make friendships before some personality traits emerge. If your kid happens to hang out with kids that grow up to smoke and use drugs, it won't necessarily follow that your kids will move on and find new friends. Chances are higher your kids will follow the behavior of the crowd they are hanging out with.
My son's crowd is into computer games and heavy metal music, but not skateboards, drugs and, smoking. Mike never was the physical risk taker so it wasn't total luck he didn't end up in a skater group. But he could still have ended up with drug experimenters for friends. If that happens, there would be very little a parent could do about it. So some of what your kids turn into is from their surroundings.
I was in those groups as a kid. The difference was I left my hometown for college, and I got bored of drugs after a while. Some of my friends ended up dead, in jail, or just miserable drug and alcohol users like the ones you see on "Cops". My younger brother, on the other hand, ended up as Mr goody two shoes. He definitely was in a different social crowd. We had the same parents.
This is probably a bit too anecdotal. Forgive me, I got carried away.  |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2005 : 03:57:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
That's because parents are not the only influences on a kids life...
Excellent points, and very well stated. I suspect my assessment's right, at least in our (most fortunate) circumstances here in the US... if one makes a conscientious effort, things will probably work out in the long run, but no guarantees (as with anything else in life)... too many random variables. As an aside, many young people seem to go through a "phase" which were it to persist, they'd surely end up hardened alcoholics or hopeless druggies, but it usually doesn't. Not to imply these things aren't understandably of great concern to parents- they're certainly worrisome- but the reality is, when considered from an objective standpoint, most often they pass. RE the roles of nature/nurture, there were a couple of interesting threads here a while back, but Steven Pinker has 2 books- his acclaimed "How The Mind Works" and a previous work (been a while, title elludes me at the moment) that are both very readable (and in my opinion) extremely worthwhile and informative in gaining an understanding of these issues, and much more. Kind of weird- "How The Mind Works" starts out by stating "Nobody knows how the mind works" and the nature/nuture consensus is "They both play a part"... sounds awful lame, but the books are great. |
Ron White |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2005 : 09:36:20 [Permalink]
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beskeptical wrote: Marfknox, lighten up.
I prefaced my comments by saying that I had no problem with other people teaching their kids about Santa Claus. I clearly made my comments to share opinions I have and perhaps generate more discussion. By saying "lighten up" are you saying I should give in to the social pressure to tell my kids about Santa Claus despite the opinions I've formed, or are you saying I should not share those opinions about the matter with others? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2005 : 10:14:37 [Permalink]
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Beskeptical wrote:
Do you know of a single person, young or old who viewed telling kids there was a Santa, a Bunny or the Tooth fairy later made the kid lose trust in a parent?
Actually, I was deeply hurt by the Santa fantasy. There were two components that fucked up my experience of it. First, right about the time I started questioning and actually thinking about the real-life possibilities of a Santa, I had a dream (that I thought was a real memory) that I slept on the couch and saw Santa's red sack just as it whooshed up the chimney. Second, when I was nine I had started to doubt, so I point blank asked my mother “Is there really a Santa?” and I still remember the look on her face; she was deciding whether or not to lie, and obviously felt uncomfortable. She decided to tell me that he really did exist, and so I continued believing until I was eleven, despite all kinds of evidence to the contrary and kids at school teasing me, because I did not want to believe that my mom had lied to me. When I was older I talked to my mom about this, and she admitted that she felt guilt about lying and didn't know how to handle me believing in Santa until such a late age. She didn't know about the dream and other rationalizations coupled with my trust in her word.
I realize that my specific experience is very unusual, but I don't want the experience of lying to my kids. Also, about a quarter of children will have a bad experience transitioning from Santa belief to no Santa belief exactly because they believe in Santa until too late an age. See this article: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/12/prweb185969.htm
By the way, please do not blow my personal experiences out of proportion. I will once again state that I'm not on some anti-Santa crusade. Every parent has to decide for themselves how to deal with this issue. I have formed my personal opinions after a lot of careful consideration.
There are other consequences, not that everyone has to tell their kids the same fantasies but you may be making the child confused when everyone else their age believes in Santa and you tell them he's a fake. Maybe the kid will come to distrust other things besides yourself.
This is a rather silly argument. Obviously since my kids are going to be raised atheist they are going to have beliefs very different from those of other kids. You seem to be trying to establish that belief in Santa is better than none, and that is just not true. Little kids are going to develop healthy fantasies regardless. It doesn't have to specifically be Santa.
May I also point out that Santa Claus is a Christian myth which is exactly why nonChristians don't teach their kids about it.
Didn't you ever believe your stuffed animals were real?
The only fantasies I remember are the ones adults confirmed for me. I'm sure I did have others, but I must have been to young to remember. I pretended that I had an imaginary friend, and that my dolls and such were real, but I don't remember ever actually thinking they were real. The only reason kids believe in fantasies is because they haven't developed enough intelligence and knowledge to understand the difference and question. I fail to see how adults re-enforcing falsehoods helps with that development.
What do you say after reading Cinderella about her Fairy Godmother? For that matter how do you answer any questions about the fantasies kids have at that age?
I do what my parents did, tell them it's pretend.
Have you done any research into childhood development and found that parents are encouraged to tell children their fantasies are real? You seem to be arguing that lying to one's very young children is a necessary part of good parenting. I've never heard of such a thing. I would imagine that for very young children it doesn't matter one way or the other, but after the age of about 8 (when they start asking questio |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 12/06/2005 10:15:04 |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2005 : 19:05:18 [Permalink]
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I have NEVER believed in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, et al., or in any of the other silliness that parents attempt to foist upon their children. I have been a SKEPTIC for my entire life (or for as long as I can remember).
My younger brother believed in Santa Claus until he was a teenager and he received many, many extra presents for being a true believer. I always preferred reality over superstition. I never had to give up any cherished silliness.
For this reason, I have always been interested in SCIENCE.
It must have been very difficult for some people to have held easily dismissed silliness. I may have missed out on some presents, but being skeptical was much more fascinating and valuable for me.
ljbrs |
"Innumerable suns exist; innumerable earths revolve about these suns in a manner similar to the way the seven planets revolve around our sun. Living beings inhabit these worlds."
Giordano Bruno
(Burned at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church Inquisition in 1600) |
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