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broven
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
 Posted - 05/21/2001 : 21:43:32
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OK, I'm writing this merely for the sake of argument. (It goes against my better judgement to debate religion.) But, hey, what the hell. . .
What I've gotten from perusing these posts is that there are three common arguments against the existence of God. They seem to be:
A. There is no imperical evidence to support his existence.
B. There is evidence to support things such as "an old universe", evolution, etc.
C. If you believe in God you're an idiot.
I certainly don't meen to downplay or simplify the oppositions arguments, but let's use these as a jumping off point. They are, in fact, in one form or another, the most common rebuttals. So, I'd like to humbly submit my thoughts on these three topics (in reverse order).
C> Belief in god doesn't make anyone an idiot. C'mon. That's just bad sportsmanship and you know it. I'm sure if you think about it you can come up with at least a few examples of inteligent, well-spoken and thoughtful people , current and historical, who also believed in a creator in one form or another.
B> I believe the universe is old (so to speak), and that evolution is a viable theory on the development of species. I don't elevate it to the throne of FACT, merely because we haven't got it all worked out yet. Remember, they had it all worked out back when they thought that the Earth was the center of the universe. Fortunately, someone had the nerve to say, "Are you sure that's all there is to it?" My point is that alternate theories, or supporting evidence thereof, doesn't disprove other theories. And, frankly, these theories aren't mutually exclusive. (Unless you think the bible is a literal text book - which I don't).
A> There is, in fact NO imperical evidence supporting the existence of God. I could, of course spout the usual rhetoric that the heavens and the oceans and the forrests,etc., etc. proclaim his majesty, but that is hardly a sound bit of evidence. It only means something to those who are already converted. And I'll admit that when I go outside at night and look at those stars, I'm glad God gave us such a magnificent universe to inhabit. Frankly, it turns me on. And when I catch a glimpse of a satelite sailing on by. . . WOW! Aint we some awesome M****F****ers. We have a presence up there! I understand that you can be totally awed by this (and I'm sure many of you are) without believing in God. I'm just awed by it with believing. (I suppose that last little bit was niether here nor there, just wanted to get that out. . .Mmmm, feels good :-)
But, as for there being no evidence of God, let me just make two points:
1. Does lack of evidence disprove anything? To my knowledge (admittedly limited) there isn't anything that actually proves he doesn't exist. Am I wrong?
2. Everyone takes certain things on faith. At least to one extent or another. I'm reminded of the scene in "Contact" where Ellie is asked if she loved her father. "Of course," she says, and is then asked to "Prove it." Love for someone really can't be proven. At least, it can be faked easily enough that no observer could tell the difference. Yet we all agree that love for others does exist. (I hope we all agree, anyway.) My argument for that, I suppose, would be that we can agree it exists, without proof, because we have all experienced it. Well, millions have expereinced God, in some form. And the minority (all of you - sorry, no offense intended) choose to disbelieve because you haven't experienced it, or refused to acknowledge it, or something along those lines. I suppose I believe that God is real, much for the same reason that I know I love my kids. (I'm sorry it's not a real scientific proof - but, that's the best I can do at the moment.) And I'm still interested in what you folks think about my feable explanation.
Another thought that has occurred to me occasionally: Before the Big Bang where did all this stuff come from. I'm sure no one knows and many of you assume that the explination will be perfectly natural. But this, too, you take on faith.
Anyway, this stuff may be old hat to alot of you, but, hey, I'm new here and I really wanted to get in on the fun. Besides, it'll give you all something to talk about. 
So I'd love to hear what you all think. And I promise to respond as often as possible (I do love a good debate). Just one request - I'm not an idiot, I'm not close-minded, and I'm not (so far as I know) self-delusional. Please don't imply that I am. It only lessons your points, and I really want to know what you think about the ideas I've presented.
Thanks, and take care. . .
Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2001 : 22:55:52 [Permalink]
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I agree that the fact that there is no evidence for God does not rule out its existence. However, considering that there is no evidence would make or should make a lot of people rethink the whole God theory. What's a theory without some supporting evidence?
No one knows the origin of the universe, but here is a link that has some pretty interesting ideas.
http://members.madasafish.com/~fist/articles/beforebigbang.txt
We know nothing about what came before the universe began, but in that link you can see that we do know enough to take some stabs at guessing. At least they admit that they are guesses. Even though we don't know now, maybe we will someday. I am convinced that if we do it will be as a result of many, many generations of scientific research. Religion simply does not have the tools to crack this one.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2001 : 00:13:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
And the minority (all of you - sorry, no offense intended) choose to disbelieve because you haven't experienced it, or refused to acknowledge it, or something along those lines.
broven: WARNING! this is a rant on this one quote only. The rest I'll study further...
I was molested as a young child by a neighbor. This neighbor, when I was twelve came to inform my family that he had been 'saved' and to apologize for any wrongs he had done. There is one problem with this...how does his being saved do anything to repair the damage done to a child. It does nothing, there is no comfort in forgiving him, it took fifteen years of self induced torment and counseling to rid myself of the guilt he forced on me. It took him two minutes to be baptized and saved. Still there is part of me that can not go beyond the five years of mental and physical rape he perpetrated. I tried turning to god, but there was no comfort there, this man was and is a sick disgusting bastard who doesn't deserve one more moment of my time. Yet everything I am and have become in someway relates to this issue. My priest gave me some drivel that god had a hidden purpose in this act. What purpose could a 'kind loving forgiving god' have in allowing this sickness to happen, what lesson is learned here. NONE! Because of this jackass everyday I have to pick up the pieces and try to fit them together, everyday I live with the memory of this jackass' sadistic little secret indelibly burned in my mind.
How anyone, be they deity or human could allow children to experience such horror as the total anihilation of everything they are is beyond my comprehension. 'God uses evil to his own ends', well this is the worst of evil you can find and there is no lesson here. I've experienced god's brand of love to closely and no thank you and it still took me too long a time to walk away from it.
It damn sure wasn't god who taught me to hold my head up and stare my future in the face but rather Uncle Sam's Misguided Children. Semper Fidelis to the Corps.
[added]
Thought I should note, this situation was only the catalyst that made me start researching and questioning the motives of god. Well, one thing led to another and no proof outside the bible, hmm...
Spinnin' my wheels and gettin' no where - fast
Edited by - Trish on 05/22/2001 10:14:49 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2001 : 00:39:23 [Permalink]
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C> Belief in god doesn't make anyone an idiot. C'mon. That's just bad sportsmanship and you know it.
Talk about bad sportsmanship. Starting off with a strawman argument is very bad form. The only person who said that if you believe in god you are an idiot is you.
Jar Jar was pounced upon not because he believes in god but because he was abusive and a liar.
B> I don't elevate (evolution) to the throne of FACT, merely because we haven't got it all worked out yet.
It is generally accepted as being a fact since it has withstood every conceivable challenge thrown at it for the past 160 years. But as I have said several times before it has nothing to do with religious faith.
My point is that alternate theories, or supporting evidence thereof,
doesn't disprove other theories.
Actually, if you are talking about the Genesis creation of the animal kingdom exactly as it is today as a "theory", it does precisely that. You see with evolution and what we've learned from the fossil record the only possible explanation of Adam, Eve and their talking snake is that it's a myth.
No Adam=no fall from grace. No fall=no need for a savior.
A> There is, in fact NO imperical evidence supporting the existence of God. … let me just make two points:
1. Does lack of evidence disprove anything? To my knowledge (admittedly limited) there isn't anything that actually proves he doesn't exist. Am I wrong?
No, you are right. "Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack." And I can no more prove god doesn't exist than I can prove leprechauns don't exist.
But you see I AM NOT THE ONE WHO IS MAKING A CLAIM, therefore there is no need for me to prove anything.
You (the rhetorical you, not you personally) are making any number of claims.
You tell me god exists. You tell me that of all the gods that people have claimed yours is the only one who exists. You tell me things he has done. You tell me his likes and dislikes. You tell me what he has commanded me to do. You can tell me who his chosen people are. You can even tell me what he looks like. You insist that I live by his rules. You make me swear to him when I go to court. You even make me carry around pledges to him on the money in my pocket. Etc., etc., etc.
In return I request one thing. Prove that he exists. That's not really very much to ask. If I were going to buy a pair of sneakers and I wanted proof of them before I plunked down my money no one would consider that to be the least bit strange.
I am asking no more of your claim of god than I would ask of a Keds salesman. Show me the merchandise.
But there is no empirical evidence. You can't supply a jot, even though you make claims of all of this knowledge.
So I have no way of knowing if you are telling me the truth or not.
Worse-- YOU have no way of knowing if you are telling me the truth or not.
Abraham Lincoln once wrote to a magazine editor who was printing nasty stories about him. He said that if the editor was making claims that he didn't know were true he was in fact lying. Even if it was later found that these claims were correct.
2. … we all agree that love for others does exist. (I hope we all agree, anyway.) My argument for that, I suppose, would be that we can agree it exists, without proof, because we have all experienced it. Well, millions have expereinced God, in some form.
Are you now classifying god as an emotion? Have you changed the definition of god on us?
Are you no longer going with the Judeo/Christian god as being the sole deity? According to this example every god who was ever claimed qualifies for existence.
Think of the rapture of religious experience, the being one with the goddess, that the wahines felt just before they jumped into the volcano for the love of Pele.
And the minority (all of you - sorry, no offense intended) Actually I take it as a complement choose to disbelieve because you haven't experienced it, or refused to acknow |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2001 : 00:45:35 [Permalink]
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Too true, Trish. I've seen a lot of really scum-sucking things done in the name of religon. Besides personal experiences, heck, just pick up a newspaper or log onto CNN.
I've known and worked with people of all religons. Know what? They're people. Some were warm and caring, some so-so, and some should have been (several actually were) given an all-expense paid trip to Leavenworth.
(Sidebar: One guy claimed that what he had done to his daughter was okay, because of what Lot pulled. The court-martial panel didn't buy it either. Hello Kansas)
Okay, back on subject: I guess the one of the most important lessons I've learned, is that I never judge a person on the basis of what he or she professes to believe. All I ask for is honesty and fairness, and they'll get it back in return.
Semper Fi, Trish
Lisa
Who do you serve? Who do you trust? |
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Bozola
Skeptic Friend
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2001 : 08:42:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
B> I don't elevate (evolution) to the throne of FACT, merely because we haven't got it all worked out yet.
It is generally accepted as being a fact since it has withstood every conceivable challenge thrown at it for the past 160 years. But as I have said several times before it has nothing to do with religious faith.
Truth. Some of the most outspoken evolutionist are Jesuits.
Arf! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2001 : 10:25:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
I guess the one of the most important lessons I've learned, is that I never judge a person on the basis of what he or she professes to believe. All I ask for is honesty and fairness, and they'll get it back in return.
It wasn't so much what he believed, but the assumption on his part that he had made things OK. Like I added, this was only a catalyst. I think we've both worked and lived with a diverse cross section of society. People are people where ever you go. It's just the assumption that because you've found god you need not take responsibility for your past and all should be forgiven that burns my britches. Some things should not be forgotten nor forgiven. The only person here I needed to forgive was myselft because I thought the fault mine.
Oh well...on a lighter note. Saw a great bumper sticker today: He's YOUR god, They're YOUR rules, YOU burn in Hell.
Spinnin' my wheels and gettin' no where - fast |
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broven
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2001 : 11:33:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
I agree that the fact that there is no evidence for God does not rule out its existence. However, considering that there is no evidence would make or should make a lot of people rethink the whole God theory. What's a theory without some supporting evidence?
No one knows the origin of the universe, but here is a link that has some pretty interesting ideas.
http://members.madasafish.com/~fist/articles/beforebigbang.txt
We know nothing about what came before the universe began, but in that link you can see that we do know enough to take some stabs at guessing. At least they admit that they are guesses. Even though we don't know now, maybe we will someday. I am convinced that if we do it will be as a result of many, many generations of scientific research. Religion simply does not have the tools to crack this one.
I checked out the link. Very good article. The only thing that confused me was the assertion that a diety creating matter negates quantum mechanics. They don't really explain that relationship in the article. Could it not be that the singularity from which this all sprang was original "Created"?
Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey.
Edited by - broven on 05/22/2001 11:34:25 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2001 : 11:35:18 [Permalink]
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If I might be so bold, Broven, Trish and Lisa's anecdotes serve well in this debate over lack of proof.
If we consider god to be a theory you are putting forward then like every scientific theory you should be able to achieve predictable results. A great deal of the Christian (I'm assuming that you are a Christian--you never stated your religious preference) theory of god (bible) deals with his personality, power, goodness and the fact that he is unchanging.
Following this "theory" you can expect to see certain results in the world in general.
As these stories show the predictable results are just not there. The world that we know does not even suggest the presence of a being such as that described as a god.
Atheism, by the way, is not, as many theists claim, a "disbelief." A disbelief, as you yourself established, is the willful rejection of a fact. Rather Atheism is a lack of belief. If a supposition has not been proved you do not actively reject it contrary to know facts (as there aren't any) you merely do not accept it.
You do not "disbelieve" in leprechauns, you simply do not actively consider them because there is no proof of their existence.
So it is with Atheists. We are not rejecting any evidence, we have just never seen any at all. Therefore we fall back to the neutral position of not having a belief.
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When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
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broven
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2001 : 11:39:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
B> I don't elevate (evolution) to the throne of FACT, merely because we haven't got it all worked out yet.
It is generally accepted as being a fact since it has withstood every conceivable challenge thrown at it for the past 160 years. But as I have said several times before it has nothing to do with religious faith.
Truth. Some of the most outspoken evolutionist are Jesuits.
Arf!
I agree completely. For the record, in case I wasn't clear about it, I believe evolution is probably the best explanation. I just don't believe it was an accident. Well, maybe "accident" is a poor choice of words. Let me say rather that I believe it was intentional.
Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey. |
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broven
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2001 : 11:54:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
How anyone, be they deity or human could allow children to experience such horror as the total anihilation of everything they are is beyond my comprehension. 'God uses evil to his own ends', well this is the worst of evil you can find and there is no lesson here. I've experienced god's brand of love to closely and no thank you and it still took me too long a time to walk away from it.
It damn sure wasn't god who taught me to hold my head up and stare my future in the face but rather Uncle Sam's Misguided Children. Semper Fidelis to the Corps.
I have to agree that this is beyond my comprehension also. But to answer that I would have to go into theology, which Isn't my strong point.
I experienced something very similar as a child myself. And like you, I received no comfort from God. In my case it was because I wasn't raised in a religious household- God was a concept I had only heard mentioned. Also, like you, I was the one who finally said, "Screw this. It wasn't my fault and it's not gonna be what my life is about." Maybe that was the lesson. I really don't know. And some of it, I suppose, goes back to free will. The guy was free to do what he did to me. He made the choice. I made the mistake of paying for it alot longer than I should have. These are just some thoughts, and I hope they don't seem to be downplaying what you went through. It really is a shitty thing for someone to do to a child. (Or another adult - or even a dog).
quote:
Thought I should note, this situation was only the catalyst that made me start researching and questioning the motives of god. Well, one thing led to another and no proof outside the bible, hmm...
I still question the motives of God. For me the catalyst was a very nasty divorce. And I'll admit that there are still times when I wonder wether He really gives a shit about us as individuals. That's my personal path right now. But, I still have the sense (I hate to say that cuz it always sounds like a cop-out) that He does exist. Good , bad or indiferent. . .
Spinnin' my wheels and gettin' no where - fast
Edited by - Trish on 05/22/2001 10:14:49
[/quote]
Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2001 : 11:57:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
...evolution is probably the best explanation. I just don't believe it was an accident. Well, maybe "accident" is a poor choice of words. Let me say rather that I believe it was intentional.
The idea of "Evolution as Accident" tornados making 747's out of junkyards and the like, are Creationist strawmen. No one ever said it was by accident but rather was the result of "natural selection." Natural selection is about as far away from accident and chance as you can get.
You however seem to be espousing the concept of evolution driven and guided by a god. Okay, you can do that. Only it puts the ball back in your court again as this is yet another attribute that you are assigning to an entity whose very existence you have yet to establish.
When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
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broven
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2001 : 12:26:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
I guess the one of the most important lessons I've learned, is that I never judge a person on the basis of what he or she professes to believe. All I ask for is honesty and fairness, and they'll get it back in return.
Very good attitude. This is what christian religion boils down to. At least that's my take on it. Unfortunately religion seems to get diluted with a whole bunch of irrelevant crap, and the one basic tenet, the most important part - "Love one another" - seems to be given little or no thought. I've known many "religious" people who seem to be nothing more than self-rieghteous gossips. But like you said, we're all just people. Hopelessly Human.
Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey. |
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broven
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2001 : 12:52:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
You however seem to be espousing the concept of evolution driven and guided by a god. Okay, you can do that. Only it puts the ball back in your court again as this is yet another attribute that you are assigning to an entity whose very existence you have yet to establish.
Ha ha. You've made alot of good points. I want to respond to some of the things in your first post, but I need a little time first. But as for this, the fact is we both know I can't prove God exists. And I never claimed I could. That'd just be crazy . I'm just presenting some ideas for discussion. I'm curious to hear some rational thought on the subject. Many of the people that I know personally either believe or don't believe, but never gave it much thought. Their responses are seldom as well thought out as what I'm hearing here. Of course, I get the impression that you all have been practicing. . .
So anyway, if you require that I prove God exists, then I gratiously bow out. I can't do it. But then, the real learning comes from the discussion of theories. The proof is just the ultimate outcome of those discussions. (and often the beginning of new theories.)
Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey. |
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broven
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2001 : 14:37:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
If we consider god to be a theory you are putting forward then like every scientific theory you should be able to achieve predictable results. A great deal of the Christian (I'm assuming that you are a Christian--you never stated your religious preference) theory of god (bible) deals with his personality, power, goodness and the fact that he is unchanging.
Following this "theory" you can expect to see certain results in the world in general.
As these stories show the predictable results are just not there.
I think these stories are better examples of what Man is capable of (in the negative sense) more than what God is incapable of. We as individuals are extremely remarkable, inventive, resourceful and beautiful beings. But as a whole, we can ruin a wet dream, as the saying goes.
As for being able to expect certain results in general. . . Well, first you have define what those results should be. This immediaetly presents a problem in the fact that few organized religions can even agree on what the Bible actually tells us about God. I am forced to use the Bible as source material because you have now broached the subject of Theology, which is based on the Bible (at least in Christian doctrine). And I base this on my own interpritation, as I don't belong to any organized church.
Are you suggesting then that if there were a god, he wouldn't allow suffering? What do you base this on. It's not biblical. There is countless cases of suffering in the Bible. And as a parent, I'm not opposed to having my children suffer. If they are disrespectful, they're spanked. (I know that's not PC, but so what. . .) I also believe the best way to learn certain things is to learn the hard way. Matches burn, knives cut, etc. Although I don't go out of my way to cut and burn my kids, when it does happen, I consider it a lesson well learned. Now, when we're talking about God and mankind we are admittedly talking about suffering on a much higher level. The lessons, as Trish pointed out, aren't always obvious. Sometimes, in fact, they are completely illusive. In this same way, when I tell the kids they can't watch a certain movie, they may not understand in the least why I'm denying them. They see it often times as a form of punishment for something that they don't even know that they did. But if the movie has gratuitious sex, then my reason for not letting them watch it is sound, regardless of wether or not they understand it.
We're also talking about higher stakes with God, I suppose. If, as doctrine states, he is concerened with our immortal soul, he is then less concerned about our physical body. And if he is dealing with eternity, 60-70 years of suffering on earth is less than a drop in the bucket.
Anyway, unless you can give me some examples of what else you might expect to see if there were a God, that's all I've got at the moment.
Peace
Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey. |
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broven
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2001 : 15:00:09 [Permalink]
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Ok, Slater, I want to start trying to respond to your first post. I'll just do it piece by piece if you don't mind.
quote:
C> Belief in god doesn't make anyone an idiot. C'mon. That's just bad sportsmanship and you know it.
Talk about bad sportsmanship. Starting off with a strawman argument is very bad form. The only person who said that if you believe in god you are an idiot is you.
Jar Jar was pounced upon not because he believes in god but because he was abusive and a liar.
I may have taken some of the comments directed toward Jar Jar out of context. Like I said, I'm new here and only had a chance to read a few posts before jumping in with both feet. So, even if it isn't a predominant thought here, it is in fact a common retort to any religious belief. "How can any intelligent person honestly look at the evidence and still believe there is a God." Idiot by implication.
As for bad form. . . I just started with this because it was the least intriguing argument against belief in God. It's really not an argument at all. Just a cop out, which I have heard in one form ar another too many times. To Be Continued. . .
Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey. |
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