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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
 Posted - 01/08/2006 : 16:44:40 [Permalink]
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It's a difficult branch of medicine, without a doubt, and I truly commend the efforts of the people who "do it right"... I'm sure they make a difference, especially in kids. It's just not the kind of difference that's readily quantifiable, or necessarily even evident, except maybe in the most extreme instances (the kid at Quizno's etc.) but I'm sure the benefits go beyond the obvious, anyway. It's a tough job, and like a lot of other things, "perfection" just can't apply so we just do our best.
Edited- read the "Psychiatry" article on "Summary"... educational. Well, everyone else seems to exercise their Constitutional Right to be hypercritical and completely unreasonable (e.g. by next Christmas, balance the budget, eliminate the trade deficit, have Iraq lined, paved, thoroughly Fundamentalist Evangelized, ready for a chain of WalMarts etc. etc.) so I guess I can now-and-then, too :). |
Ron White |
| Edited by - ronnywhite on 01/08/2006 22:22:18 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2006 : 22:39:55 [Permalink]
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And I think one important point to keep in mind on this topic, treatment is always optional. As Kil has mentioned repeatedly, we're talking about a screening test, not something that locks kids into any particular treatment. Parents ultimately have to decide (after conferring with as many doctors as they see fit), whether or not they wish to put their children on medication. Just because you are diagnosed with cancer doesn't mean you have to have radiation treament (or even any treatment) unless you want to.
Personally, I think some in forms of mental illness, especially where there exists a tendency to hurt others, the taking of medication should be required by law. Well, it's either that or lock them up in institutions, and I don't see anyone from the anti-psychotropic drugs side arguing for that option.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/08/2006 22:40:33 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 00:14:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
Parents, listen up. You won't always know what sorts of programs the school system is forcing upon your children. The following article discusses pseudoscience of the most dangerous kind. An organization known as TeenScreen is trying to get every teenager in the US to participate in its program of evaluation for mental disorders.
I don't know how much more kids can get fucked up than what the Los Angeles Unified School District is doing to them.
I have so much more to say about how kids act and how some people want to make everyone the same but thankfully there are others who see through that. The majority will always want to 'fit in', our society is already like that. We just need to keep the constitution free so those of us who want to, can feel comfortable being who we are. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 00:34:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by R.Wreck
Most health related problems that a school might test for can be diagnosed with pretty good accuracy. I am skeptical that a 10 minute computerized test can tell anything useful about one's mental health (unless of course one claims the computer is the devil and beats the crap out of it). People spend countless hours with high priced psychiatrists who still can't say what's wrong with them, so why should we expect 10 minutes of multiple choice to do the job?
You got that right, haha.
I once went to a doctor for my headaches and took extensive physical and mental tests to eliminate problems. At the end of the long written psychological test the doctor sat with me in his office and asked if I'd ever been in a mental institution. LOL.
Whoops, wait, maybe I shouldn't be telling you that!
I've seen other professionals since who understand I'm just eccentric not dangerous. he, hee, heh. So don't worry. The point being, it all depends on who's doing the testing. So perhaps there is some cause to worry.
Hey, I thnk Hillary Clinton is a communist but some think she's sane. Of course they are 'nuts' too.
Go figure!
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 01:10:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
And I think one important point to keep in mind on this topic, treatment is always optional. As Kil has mentioned repeatedly, we're talking about a screening test, not something that locks kids into any particular treatment. Parents ultimately have to decide (after conferring with as many doctors as they see fit), whether or not they wish to put their children on medication. Just because you are diagnosed with cancer doesn't mean you have to have radiation treament (or even any treatment) unless you want to.
I could be wrong, although I never am, but how many parents are going to go get more opinions as to what to do with their child when the 'school' tells them help is needed? And could they afford to?
Many people are intimidated by such authority as the schools and schools try to throw their weight around. Are the parents going to know this is JUST a screening? Even if they do, how long before these 'screenings' are taken to the next step?
Schools are for learning. Nothing else. Other 'problems' and situations can and should be addressed elsewhere. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 02:09:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Snake
quote:
...is a communist...
I think she's a politician, so I have no way of knowing what she's really like only from seeing/reading of her in the political media, any more than I could know what any (other?) actor were like from watching a bunch of their movies. I only know of the strategically formulated "roles" and "scripts" she "plays" and "reads" as such... it might allow me to deduce or speculate upon a little bit more than in the case of someone out of Hollywood, but not very much.
As for what she might be like on a personal level, including her ideologies/philosophies... forget it- I'm clueless. There's tremendous power at stake, and everyone in that "business" has to "play a part" to large extent, in accordance with the (sometimes less-than-rational) desires of the voters as the pollsters perceive them, and the influences of the "powers that be" (financial and otherwise) to succeed. I don't think there'd be any place for the mythical "I chopped down the cherry tree" version of an impeccably honest and open George Washington in the politics of today (if there ever were- anywhere.)
RE "eccentricity" versus "mental illness," the entertainment business appears to be full of people who'd likely be declared "mentally ill" without doubt- aside from having enough celebrity and/or monetary assets to retain their card-carrying status of "eccentric." The same could easily apply appreciably to the rest of the public- politicians being no exception (to some degree at minimum)... the fact that they're in the positions they are suggests merely that they're aware of the public image demands of their positions- including scrutiny of their personal lives- and respond by projecting a public persona accordingly, as opposed to "entertainment industry types" who can freely "play by a different set of rules" within their ballparks. For instance, if the music industry required mandatory drug testing as do professional sports- with mandatory suspensions similarly enforced- so many concert tours would probably be cancelled that people would be scalping tickets to see Donny and Marie Osmond, and a bunch of other noise ranging from so-so to atrocious they could otherwise barely stand listening to. If that were applied to Hollywood, the cinema and television landscapes would probably change considerably, too (and not necessarily for the better, either.) |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 09:31:52 [Permalink]
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Norma, read about TeenScreen and Setting The Record Straight About TeenScreen
Updated: October 17th, 2005 before going on a rant.
I must say it is a bit disconcerting how many have weighed in without checking the original source for TeenScreen.
As for the idea that “Schools are for learning. Nothing else” I will point out that polio, tuberculosis and smallpox were all brought under control with the help of testing and inoculations at schools. Schools are logical choice for such programs since they have the largest consistently reliable gathering of kids at any one time.
And again, in the case of TeenScreen, only the parents are notified. The school staff is not. Since suicide is the third largest killer of teens, a program of this kind makes sense.
As for your politics, you know what I think…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 15:02:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Since suicide is the third largest killer of teens, a program of this kind makes sense.
I'd say a program of some kind does, not necessarily this kind (but it might... it seems that's being debated at this point, which is a good- when such things aren't thoroughly scutinized- but are taken at "face value" as being the best approach (possibly on the word of a renowed authority and his/her close associates alone) the potential for trouble may not have been adequately reviewed. It may be a good program, but considering the stakes involved, I think close examination is advisable.
But, of course, such a ridiculously high rate of suicide among kids isn't a natural state of affairs, suggesting there might be something systemically wrong with the environments they're facing... and determining exactly what those causative factors are and doing something to change them is what's really needed. It seems like examining how child and youth suicide in the US compares to other countries, or within this country demographically would be a very worthwhile way to apply some of those statistical methods I'm so critical of. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 15:15:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
But, of course, such a ridiculously high rate of suicide among kids isn't a natural state of affairs, suggesting there might be something systemically wrong with the environments they're facing...
Just out of curiosity, how are you coming to that conclusion? What are you using to gauge what the "natural" figure for teenage suicide rates should be?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/09/2006 15:17:38 |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 15:26:20 [Permalink]
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| I have no idea what the "natural death" figures are for other countries, but I'm speculating that it being the 3rd greatest cause of death would seem suspiciously high. Later when I have more time I'll take a look, unless someone more knowledgeable can sooner comment. On one hand, youth are in their prime of health beyong a certain age. On the other, suicide just isn't "natural" occurance in the animal kingdom (or so I've read or been been told.) I'm aware that some countries have youth suicide due to cultural factors (e.g. as a youth, a nearby town included Dow Chemical Company's world headquarters and main research facilities, thus, youth were over-represented by Asians of academically-oriented families... every few years, it would be in the news that one had commited suicide having "fallen to second in their highschool class", "gotten a B in a course" or the like as they felt that they had failed their families). But I'd be curious as to what a "culturally-compensated" set of figures would look like. |
Ron White |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 15:59:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
I have no idea what the "natural death" figures are for other countries, but I'm speculating that it being the 3rd greatest cause of death would seem suspiciously high.
Well, religioustolerance.org listed these Facts about Suicide.
- Industrialized countries tend to have a higher suicide rate than poor, developing countries
- The U.S. has a moderate suicide rate compared to other industrialized countries
- Suicide has been reported as the second leading cause of death among teenagers, exceeded only by traffic accidents. However, the suicide rate among teens is actually lower than that of older persons. Teens tend to have few life-threatening illnesses; teenage deaths from disease is quite low. Thus, the relatively few suicides among teens make suicide a leading cause of death.
- Suicide rates increase with age:
Age -- Suicide rate per 100,000
10 to 14 years -- 1.6
15 to 19 -- 9.5
20 to 24 -- 13.6
Whites over 85 -- 65
- Among the most common faith groups in the U.S., Protestants have the highest suicide rate; Roman Catholics are next; Jews have the lowest rate.
- Followers of religions that strongly prohibit suicide, like Christianity and Islam, have a higher suicide rate than those religions which have no strong prohibition (e.g. Buddhism and Hinduism.)
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/09/2006 16:02:56 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 17:13:55 [Permalink]
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| Is it me or the last topic is highly ironic? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 17:35:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Well, religioustolerance.org listed these...
Interesting. We'd have to look at the way frequencies of youth suicide are distributed very carefully considering many variables to draw any tentative conclusions. Dealing with abstractions in a quatitative sense as the DSM does is "tough as nails"... measuring things like "sadness," "delusion" and the like is probably one of the harder statistical problems one will find (although it has to be tackled as best we're able for lack of an alternative- at least to this point in time.) Fortunately, examining environmental factors in the milieu of youth- income, geography, education, family history, academic performance etc. is far more concrete (which is not to say it's necessarily easy, either... not by any means.) The higher rates of industrialized countries mentioned might suggest that such examination could reveal underlying factors which could be changed... or, on the other hand, it may not (meaning, if all we can come up with is nothing more than the trivial implication that "if we all go back to family farming and a simpler barter-based existence youth suicide will diminish"... well, that just ain't gonna' happen.) However, if research suggested likely causative factors in our schools which might be eliminated, or discouraged... or in patterns within families which might alert us to "at risk" youth... some kind of action- if only through better awareness and family education- could make a difference. The point is something is causing this beyond what Man would experience in a natural habitat, and it would be useful- especially in the case of kids- to determine as best we're able exactly what it is whether we can practically remedy the situation or change these circumstances or not. |
Ron White |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 17:49:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
The point is something is causing this beyond what Man would experience in a natural habitat, and it would be useful- especially in the case of kids- to determine as best we're able exactly what it is whether we can practically remedy the situation or change these circumstances or not.
I suspect the main cause is free time. When each day is a struggle for mere existence, people have less time to brood over their perceived troubles. A life filled with manual labor and drudgery, ironically, probably leads to less suicidal thoughts than a life of relative leisure. There simply isn't the opportunity to become overly self-absorbed.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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