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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 01/09/2006 : 20:22:51 [Permalink]
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You know what? All of the above. I am for a psychological approach but I understand that TeenScreen is basically a Band-Aid on a problem. Stop the bleeding, figure out the cause and do something about the problem works for me. (I should add that every approach would be psychological in nature. We are looking at a psychology, in this case the reasons for depression, after all…)
And Ron. I agree that TeenScreen should be looked at carefully. (So far, they are still at the pilot program stage.) I have said that my defense of what they propose to do is more a response to some suspicious information and down right lies about them that are circulating around the Internet. As far as I can tell, they are on the up and up. There is also great deal of skepticism about the field of psychiatry itself and therefore any approach to a problem from that direction is considered suspect. Personally, I think that is unfortunate. It distracts from the real question, which is, will what TeenScreen proposes to do, work, and if not, what will work?
It also might be helpful to realize that there are a lot more suicidal teens then there are suicides. We might want to know what stopped those kids from going through with it…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 20:42:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Is it me or the last topic is highly ironic?
I thought it was really interesting. Two other statistics that I found curious come from a Texans for gun safety page:
- Females attempt suicide four times as often as males.
- Males complete suicide four times as often as females.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/09/2006 20:44:00 |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 21:54:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
...It also might be helpful to realize that there are a lot more suicidal teens then there are suicides....
I forgot to mention earlier that the benefits of such a properly designed and administered program extend beyond merely a reduction in suicides by virtue of this, as I doubt that "suicide" is simply a "binary" symptom- the cases where a person doesn't go through with it surely suffer from other hindrences as a result of their depression. Given early detection and treatment, as happier and more functional youth and adults the differences this makes in terms of contributions for the betterment of society, as opposed to leaving them stagger on into states of borderline functioning on the fringes of society and the like are difficult to measure, but likely very real.
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
...ironic...
Yea, but we can't jump to conclusions despite not being big fans of religion in general. Religious orientation is often an extension of ethnic background within geography, and a function of geography itself among other things in the US, as it so correlates elsewhere. Some religions are more representative of the "upscale" in general than others, etc. etc. If being of the upper-middle class or above in socioeconomic stature decreases ones risk of suicide (as it well might) that alone could partially explain such differences (and so forth.) As a worshipper of the great octopus God Chthula, I can say we've never had a youth suicide and I atribute this to It's flawless and omnicient guidance, but clearly I can't be objective so I'll call that a "footnote" :)
quote:
Originally posted by HH
...free time...
That just might be at least "somewhat right" although interspection might only be half the equation, with how such boredom/indirection of energies manifests in others of their environment the other half(???) If either case were verified, that might be good news- we could probably address such by changing the structure of youth schedules, activities, and the like. In terms of the root problem being of a nature we could deal with, I think "It could be a lot worse" such as if it were determined that some youth were simply "genetically predisposed" to react so adversely to the stresses and demands of our very "unnatural" modern living environment (I doubt that is true, but it sure might be a tough problem to deal with.) |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 23:29:50 [Permalink]
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Humbert posted the stats:
* Females attempt suicide four times as often as males.
* Males complete suicide four times as often as females.
My friend who is a social worker mentioned similar stats years ago. I'm convinced it has to do with how boys are conditioned to not express emotional weakness and to solve such problems internally, while girls are conditioned to express emotions and solve such problems by reaching out to others. Thus, girls and women end up using suicide attempts as a "cry for help" more often, while boys/men use it more often to permanently exit the world. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 01/09/2006 23:30:06 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 23:50:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Thus, girls and women end up using suicide attempts as a "cry for help" more often, while boys/men use it more often to permanently exit the world.
I agree with your conclusion, although not neccessarily that the sexes are "conditioned" that way. There may be some innate differences at work as well.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2006 : 00:24:00 [Permalink]
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I agree with your conclusion, although not neccessarily that the sexes are "conditioned" that way. There may be some innate differences at work as well.
While I agree that the hormonal and differences in reproduction between men and women has something to do with setting cultural gender trends, ultimately most of our behavior and gender identity is set through learning, not genes. After spending some time abroad, American men seemed almost comically hyper-macho to me - which was weird since American men also tend to be more accepting of equality of the sexes. But I digress. Suicide rates (and mental/emotional illness in general) has been proven to be related to environmental conditions - otherwise the rates wouldn't vary so radically. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 01/10/2006 00:24:17 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2006 : 01:01:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by H. Humbert
A life filled with manual labor and drudgery, ironically, probably leads to less suicidal thoughts than a life of relative leisure. There simply isn't the opportunity to become overly self-absorbed.
Not knowing any statistics about that either but just speaking from personal experience/thoughts, I'd say it's much more complicated than that. BTW, thoughts are one thing, doing it is another. I thought the stistics shown in other posts were actual suicides, is why I mention that. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2006 : 01:07:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
[list]Females attempt suicide four times as often as males.
That's because they are... Overly dramatic! They get hysterical about everything. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2006 : 01:19:02 [Permalink]
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In general, I'm siding with Kil in his defense of TeenScreen. There seems to be a tone of bs on the side that's attacking them. The drug companies are often scum-bags, and there are also plenty of bad psychologists and psychiatrists, so maybe people who have been screwed are just projecting their anger and frustration on anything they perceive as being related to their experiences.
I do think the teen suicide problem is a bit overblown. Even if it is the third or even the second largest killer of teens, we're talking about teens – it's not like they're getting heart disease or cancer all that often. And if the material from religious tolerance is trustworthy, the teens are killing themselves less often than people over 20. It doesn't seem like an epidemic.
I do think there are good reasons the TeenScreen approach to improving teenage mental health doesn't sit well with a lot of people. Sure, some has to do with irrational stigmas attached to the field of psychology and fears of branding people as crazy, but a lot of those fears are rooted in some truth. I know people with real serious mental disordered who have been helped a lot by doctors, but, unfortunately, I know of even more mistakes.
I have low blood sugar problems, and even after discovering that and knowing that my anxiety disorder could be cured by a change in diet and eating habits, my GP still gave me some sample SSRIs! Those things have tons of nasty side affects, take a month to start working, and you have to be weaned off them after regular use. No friggin' thanks! I didn't take the pills. Instead I researched about them and found out that the doc had given me samples of the latest anti-depression med, hot off the market. When I went back for a follow up I told the doc I wasn't taking them and why (and that the new diet was working – my anxiety was fading) she practically congratulated me and explained that most people ask for the psych meds because they view it as an easier solution. So she had just given them to me out of habit. Gee, thanks, doc.
One problem is the incredible ignorance of people regarding mental and emotional health and treatments. Students and parents need to be better educated about all the other ways emotional problems can be treated. Drugs are sometimes necessary, but I do think they are overused.
And while certainly some people are more prone to certain mental disorders than others, mental/emotional health is also affected by environmental factors. For instance, if these stats from religious tolerance…
“It appears that about one in three teen aged suicides is by a gay or lesbian. Since homosexuals represent only about 5% of the population, gays and lesbians are greatly over-represented.”
…are even close to the truth, then one big step toward reducing teen suicide would be to implement GBLT tolerance and information programs in junior high and high schools. Or hell – just providing GBLT materials in libraries so gay kids can discover that there is a community out there, a light at the end of the tunnel, er, closet, after they get out of HS.
And of course there are many other factors that can lead to or worsen mental disorders. I don't get why psychologists and psychiatrists working on these issues don't focus more on education and more broad environmental solutions, rather than individual screening followed by individual counseling/drug proscribing. We only have so much money and resources, why can't we put them into something better than a band aid?
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2006 : 01:21:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Norma, read about TeenScreen and Setting The Record Straight About TeenScreen
Updated: October 17th, 2005 before going on a rant.
As for your politics, you know what I think…
I don't know what you mean by rant, however.......
It has been my experience that after I read stuff like that it doesn't give me added information. Nor do my opinions often change either.
We'll talk about politics later, LOL. But she really has communistic leanings. Very scary for a 'free' society.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2006 : 01:28:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
...is a communist...
I think she's a politician, so I have no way of knowing what she's really like only from seeing/reading of her in the political media, any more than I could know what any (other?) actor were like from watching a bunch of their movies. I only know of the strategically formulated "roles" and "scripts" she "plays" and "reads" as such... it might allow me to deduce or speculate upon a little bit more than in the case of someone out of Hollywood, but not very much.
As for what she might be like on a personal level, including her ideologies/philosophies... forget it- I'm clueless.
I don't know her personaly either, haha. And I wouldn't want to. Doesn't her manner come across as bossy and bitchy? Oh, I guess you are right, she is a polititian 1st! But as much as I don't like Boxer and Finestein, the two women clueless senators from California, they don't have that same attitude at Ms. Clinton. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2006 : 01:42:32 [Permalink]
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Kil wrote: “The questions are straightforward.”
I have to disagree with this.
Take this question: Have you often felt very nervous when you've had to do things in front of people?
The question doesn't specify what kind of situation "in front of people" means. One person could interpret it as doing anything in public, such as eating in a restaurant, while another could assume the question refers to things like public speaking.
Or this: Have you often worried a lot before you were going to play a sport or game or do some other activity?
How does one qualify "a lot"?
Although according to the TeenScreen website, it isn't supposed to diagnose, just identify all the teens who might have a problem, so maybe the questions have to be that vague? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2006 : 01:43:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
As for the idea that “Schools are for learning. Nothing else” I will point out that polio, tuberculosis and smallpox were all brought under control with the help of testing and inoculations at schools. Schools are logical choice for such programs since they have the largest consistently reliable gathering of kids at any one time.
And again, in the case of TeenScreen, only the parents are notified. The school staff is not. Since suicide is the third largest killer of teens, a program of this kind makes sense.
No, it doesn't. I repeat school is for learning.
school (skˇl) noun
Abbr. sch., s., S.
1. An institution for the instruction of children or people under college age.
2. An institution for instruction in a skill or business: a secretarial school; a karate school.
3. a. A college or university. b. An institution within or associated with a college or university that gives instruction in a specialized field and recommends candidates for degrees. c. A division of an educational institution constituting several grades or classes: advanced to the upper school. d. The student body of an educational institution. e. The building or group of buildings housing an educational institution.
4. The process of being educated formally, especially education constituting a planned series of courses over a number of years: The children were put to school at home. What do you plan to do when you finish school?
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
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No where does it say, school lunch programs, medical care, or after school programs are a part of that education.
I got my polio medication at our doctors office.
Perhaps if people aren't prepared to take care of children they shouldn't have them.
THAT'S where we need to put our efforts, educating from an early age how to prepare for life so we wouldn't need all these programs. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2006 : 01:52:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Suicide rates (and mental/emotional illness in general) has been proven to be related to environmental conditions - otherwise the rates wouldn't vary so radically.
Well, I thought this one was a female to male ratio that wasn't affected so much by culture. At least, none of the sites I've read it have mentioned it being region specific. Still, you make some good points.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/10/2006 01:55:22 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2006 : 01:58:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
No where does it say, school lunch programs, medical care, or after school programs are a part of that education.
I got my polio medication at our doctors office.
Perhaps if people aren't prepared to take care of children they shouldn't have them.
THAT'S where we need to put our efforts, educating from an early age how to prepare for life so we wouldn't need all these programs.
You seem to have a problem with any government program at all...
Polio vaccinations and eye tests are in schools because we care about the health of our children. It's called social programs, and endorsing them is not "communist." We have these programs because most voters want these programs.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/10/2006 02:01:58 |
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